Our place, our country too: Rallies at Parliament

Waves of emotion. Rolling sound overpowering thought. Chanting. Black shirts. Black and red. The sound of the haka. Twelve year old boys shouting 'Enough is Enough.' Placards. Love and friendship. Fear and anger. Fists being raised to cries of 'Jesus.'

What a bizarre morning. I showed up at Parliament about 11.30am and there were about 200 people in the area around the Seddon statue. The march of pro-CU people showed up about 15 minutes later with another 400 or so; there were 5-600 people all decked out in bright colours, orange and white balloons.

And then they arrived.

Streams of people in black shirts and black pants. Fists punching the air. I reckon about 4000 all up; there would have been about 5000 people on the grounds of Parliament at the height of it.

They mobbed us, surrounded us and pushed us in together and came through us and divided us and stood with us and hated us and shouted at us and laughed with us and cried with us.

We disrupted their haka by standing in front of it - it was loud and it had them chanting, again, fists in the air, 'Enough is Enough' - their sound system drowned ours out.

All sang the Anthem; me loudly, holding my placard aloft. Looks of surprise and fear in their eyes around us. They thought it was their anthem.

I have never felt so cut off from a group of people in my life; and never more together with the unionists, the liberals, the decent people in all their colours and life and beauty supporting us.

I have never felt so afraid as when I saw them arriving, black and red, hate in their eyes, the frenzy of zealouts spilling out across the Parliament grounds.

They can say what they like but their arguments come down to an opinion, which they believe is backed by the word of God: that queer New Zealanders are not entitled to the same civil rights as straight New Zealanders.

They are wrong.

Nobody who was there can ever forget the contrast: the hate and anger and black and red; versus the colour and diversity and humanity of our crowd.

Nobody will be able to avoid the comparison between them and another group of black shirts, German ones from seventy years ago.

A strange day. I'm glad it is done. I am glad we stood and confronted them; I am glad we had more people than we expected and that they had fewer.

I feel sorry for them; sorry that they suffer such hate, and sorry that they believe so strongly in something that is so flawed and wrong.

I feel grief; grief that they cannot accept that this is our place, our country too.

I feel hope; hope that their arguments are not going to stop legislation that deserves to pass.

I walked off the feelings of nausea on the way back to work, walking with a Maori friend who had to deal with his own culture being flung at him, attacking who he is.

A day to remember.

Comments

[span(ner in the works)]

thank you for this Jordan - arohanui e hoa

[Ross]

Cheers Jordan. Well put. Some pics from the day are at www.dorkinglabs.com/blog.php

[My Right]

Thanks Jordan, sounds like a sad, sad day. Good on your crew for fronting and standing your ground. I don't mind a scrap in the Rugby - but did not want to see this get ugly. Credit on both sides due there I think.

I've linked to your post - hope you don't mind.

My R

[Conor Roberts]

I was there with you in spirit.
Well in a room in a convention center giving an oral submission in support of the bill at least:)

[Jeremy]

This is such a good breakdown of the day, Jordan. Captured it perfectly.

If anyone wants my photos, flick me an email - jeremy.greenbrook(@)vuw.ac.nz

Jeremy

jeremy4president.blogspot.com

[Fi]

It truly was one of the weirdest days that I have experienced. To be honest it really scared me –. I have never felt threatened before and today I did. You were really brave marching.

Surely the essence of religion is love and not hate?

Men dressed in black singing the national anthem with one arm raised in the air…

[Make tea not war]

At least icky fundamentalists are a very small minority in New Zealand. Its not like living in the US where they get to insist on teaching creationism in schools.

[Rachel C]

Thanks for sharing. I feel sadness that this is how Density Church people follow Jesus' two greatest commandments: to love God, and love their neighbour as themselves.

All people should have equal rights.

Peace.

[iona]

Beautifully captured, thanks. Yeah, there was a real sense of physical threat, particularly when the hate protesters first showed up. I felt it too.

[Jordan]

thanks for all your comments. it's been a pretty difficult day to understand and cope with; but we made it, and I think in the media war we comprehensively won. good stuff.

jordan

[stef]

The only thing that was marred by that is that the numbers were on the side of the right. What has become of the left when destiny is outnumbering us by a factor of almost 10 to 1.

[Glenn]

I seem to remember another group of protesters flying red and black flags recently. Guess I’d have feared for my life if I’d confronted their ideas, as well. You have more in common with these people than you think. They want to regulate behavior, you want to regulate wealth and property. You just need an authoritarian socialist like Jim Anderton to bring you all together.

[Jordan]

I wasn't fearing for my life; I was fearing for my sanity. And comparing socialism with fundamentalist religion is drawing a pretty long bow.

[j]

'he takataapui' - a traditional Maori word for homosexual that was used merely to denote an accepted difference, and was not used in a derogatory sense

[Benjamin Franzmayr]

Hi Jordan
Good one for being there in the counter march. It sounds quite scary to me and I don't think I would have coped with it well myself had I been there.
Kia Kaha
Benjamin franzmayr

[DRS57]

How dreadful for you to be in the same physical location as those you hate and fear (and let me be quite clear: you DO hate the Destiny marchers don't you?, why else would you liken them to Nazis and de-legitimise their message).

What a pity that such people can't be re-educated!

[Jordan]

No, I don't hate them, and I don't fear them as people. As I said in my post, the overwhelming feeling is of sadness. Fundamentalism is sad wherever it is, because it suspend judgement.

People who leave their minds behind are no longer fully human, and for people to choose to be like that is scary - but mainly sad.

[Tim]

It's not just people on the left who see the rally as at least fascist friendly. The fact that, as far as I saw, the only (other) organised group who turned out in support of Enough is Enough was the National Front suggests that upfront fascists see enough parallels between themselves and Enough is Enough to turn out.

When one of the placards on the Enough is Enough march read "Family, Folk, Nation", well...

[Jordan]

what was the slogan?

Ein Reich
Ein Volk
Ein Fuhrer

They're not that. But they're not good, either.

[Conor Roberts]

I think the Nazi comparison can be pushed a bit far.
Especailly when you have their people on TV saying all they thought they where doing where sticking up for the family.

A better comparison to the Nazis would have been the level of dessent that members of each side would have been able to display without risking exclusion. Its the 'us and them' or 'right and wrong' or 'bad and good people' that is a closer draws a closer relationship between the two.

[daniel Flanagan]

I went to the march and did not wear a black shirt but did shout Enough is Enough
I dont know what all the fuss is about,nobody got killed did they.
The only people i saw getting angry were the people who verbally abused me for carry a banner that said no to the civil unions and Jesus is king.
Look at the statue of John Seddon in the grounds of parliment he has his arm raised,must be a nazi.
Come off it your just as fundamental about your cause
Lets stop the name calling and get to the basics, Man and Man cant produce baby
Man and Women can.
I think in the future the christian voice is going to get bigger dont be surprised that at the next march there will be 10000 people.
Also if this was such a big issue where were all the thousands of people who want Civil unions

[Jordan]

Civil rights aren't about reproduction. You don't ban people from getting married if they're too old to have children, or if they are infertile. Civil Unions will let people protect their relationships. Straight couples can use them. So can queer couples.

You really expose yourself with this comment:

"I dont know what all the fuss is about,nobody got killed did they."

Innocent people do get killed, unfortunately, by the homophobia spread about by people like yourself.

[Daniel Flanagan]

Answer the question
Did anybody get killed
I didnt make the rules God did
If you dont it talk to him he made them male and female and to populate the earth not me.
Your comment that innocent people get killed, who said they were innocent

[Jordan]

Who said it was a crime to be honest about how God made you?

[span(ner in the works)]

Daniel, are you totally unaware of the many people who have been victims of hate and prejudice the world over? the one that comes to my mind, which i think i already mentioned in this thread, is Matthew Shepard:
http://www.matthewshepard.org/story.html
or
http://www.wiredstrategies.com/shepardx.html

as for the innocence issue - let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone John 8:7
and
judge not lest you be judged Matthew 7:1

[Daniel]

Please stop using scripture out of context
The first scripture was to agroup of guys who were going to kill this lady with stones.
Sure jesus does not advocate killing people but he did tell the lady to go her way and stop sinning, her choice.
The second scripture jesus was talking to his disciples not to judge each other.The bible condemns this (Romans 14:10, James 4:11)
But in John 7:24 jesus said Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement.
If someone lies, steals , commits sexual sin i can judge because its not me doing the judgeing.
The word of God does the judgeing im just passing on the information ie the bible says
I dont want to sound patronising but you sound like someone who is looking for truth and thats good, and there is hope because i was in the same place as many a confused sodomite till i let jesus take that desire away.Its not genetic i can tell you that
Can i give you a suggestion read your bible , but let the word of God change your thoughts not you try to change it to conform with yours.

[Tony]

There's nothing worse that a repressed homosexual trying to tell people he/she is 'cured'. In fact, I often find the most homophobic people in this world are homosexual themselves. I don't know how people can hate themselves that much. I wouldn't be suprised if certain opponents of these bills 'come out' in 10 years time. It's a sad world when people can't just be themselves.

[Daniel]

There is something worse and thats a man putting his penis up a mans bum and thinking that anybody who disagrees to this practice is homophobic.
Your right it a sad world
Jesus is the answer

[S Heath]

I blame it on eating shrimp myself:

Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

And if anyone talks about translation and oral law and such like then I in turn can say the same thing about your fav quotes. Anyone that wants to live their life based on writings from 1500 to 3000 years ago that has been translated so many times from the source langague is more than welcome. Just dont expect others to do it just cause you say so. It is all about faith, I sure dont have any faith in a God like being.

Lets agree to disagree and wait until the warriors of Valhalla come forth at the time of the Ragnarok to decide the outcome, winner takes all! :-)

[span(ner in the works)]

well I'm not a Christian Daniel (two christian secondary schools "cured" me of that) but i don't find your scriptural argument convincing. Every example you give can be turned around and used against you, in fact more easily than it can be used in your favour.

But some of my best friends are christians, in fact my partner is one, so i'm certainly not christian-phobic. i respect their faith, in fact i respect it more when they respect that i don't share it.

I don't think anybody asked you to agree to have a man put his penis up your bum, as you so eloquently put it. I don't really see what business it is of yours if others do agree to it, as long as all parties involved are consenting?

isn't there some scripture about take first the log from your own eye?

[Scott]

Sorry connor, but the point appears to be just beyond your grasp. The reason the Destiny and its supporters are being likened to Fascists and Nazis' is because Destiny is advoacating that those who do not embrace the gospel and repent from their homosexuality ARE second class citizens. The Dstiny church wishes to marginalise me and turn me into a scapegoat for the 'disintegration' of the family, little old me. Who knew I had so much power?
Sorry, I cant repent my homosexuality because it is A PART OF ME in the same way that I have blonde hair. I was'nt given a choice in this, no one handed me a form with lifestyle choices on it to select from. If you believe that you can change someones sexuality forcibly, then all you are doing is spreading misery

[Idiot/Savant]

Daniel,

you seem to be relying on a Divine Command Theory of ethics - that something is wrong because god says so. The obvious flaw in this theory can be seen if you ask whether torturing children is wrong because god forbids it, or whether god forbids it because it is wrong. The latter makes morality independent of god; the former has the unfortunate implication that torturing children would be right (hell, morally _required_) if god said so.

If you want to argue that homosexuality is immoral, you're going to need a better ethical basis than that, sorry.

[Daniel]

I dont need to argue with anyone
All i have to do is say the bible says
Cheers

[span(ner in the works)]

ah well, there goes the argument. as long as daniel says the bible says then that's it folks!!

good to see that there are strong and rational arguments for your prejudice. Not.

sorry if that sounds harsh but it makes me mad when people say they have "reasons" for deciding that certain other people are second class citizens (or not citizens at all) but are basically unable to articulate those reasons.

[Daniel]

I think using the bible is a good foundation
to start from.
The bible has been used by many countrys for law making.
The law is in place to restrain evil.

[Jordan]

Judeo-Christian values are at the heart most people's understanding of what a civilised society looks like. That does not mean most people think the law is based on the bible.

The law is based on the moral views of society at a given time, as established by the parliamentary law making process.

Social morals, and law, change over time.

Your fundamentalism, sadly, blinds you to these most basic points.

There was a good letter in the Dom Post today pointing out several other things which the Bible says but which Destiny is not advocating for.

The focus on gay issues is just blatant homophobia; a selective reading of the bible to justify creating a victim group in a campaign designed to gain support for a new, far-right political party, called Destiny NZ.

Simple, and sad, as that.

Jordan

[span(ner in the works)]

Daniel, if you want to have a gander at some other "sins" that Destiny ignores, in its own flock, check out this post by DPF in his blog:
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/archives/007443.html

[Idiot/Savant]

To paraphrase everybody's mother:

If the bible told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?

[span(ner in the works)]

heh heh, good call IS

[Daniel]

In away i have jumped off the cliff.
The bible says that i am a new creation my old life has gone and i have a new one and jesus dwells in me.
People who lead a sodomite lifestyle which is not a lifestyle but a deathstyle.
How long will it be till sex with animals, and sex with children is lawful.
Even though people dont know that the law has been based on the bible it still is a fact that it is.

[stef]

I don't really give god much thought. I do live next to a church and have been known to throw up on it after a hard night on the turps.

Christians do some good stuff in society and some bad stuff. however the days when we governed society on the basis of a myth are over. Fact and reason has repalced voodoo arachic traditions in law making. Liberalism doesn't stop people believing that homosexulaity is wrong cause the bible says so, it merely stops them enforcing their beliefs upon others.

[scott]

Lost going on here about sexuality being a choice or not. And I know it muust be difficult for many of Pastor Tamakis supporters to reconcile everything they are told and read in the bible with...well...scientific fact. Have any of the Destiny people here ever looked at the APA website? For those of you are unfamiliar with it you can read about the APA here: www.apa.org
Of course if you want to challenge yourself, then have a look at this : www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html#society

[scott]

Lost going on here about sexuality being a choice or not. And I know it muust be difficult for many of Pastor Tamakis supporters to reconcile everything they are told and read in the bible with...well...scientific fact. Have any of the Destiny people here ever looked at the APA website? For those of you are unfamiliar with it you can read about the APA here: www.apa.org
Of course if you want to challenge yourself, then have a look at this : www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html#society

[Conor Roberts]

Can god create a squared circle I wonder?

[Stephen Cooper]

God Can do anything, s/he (at the same time, just to be in theme) just has to think 11th dimensionally.

And thats why he has to write (through several different guys, over a couple of centuries) an obscure piece of fiction completely open to interpretation in order to give us our divine message of peace, love and do what your pastor tells you.

In keeping with the theme of religous zealots prdeicting doom at every technological and social revolution throughout the western world's history (and promptly appropriating it once it has become mainstream) Christian Europe's elites, those who could read AND possesed a copy of the bible (yes, the church at one time did keep quite close tabs on them) tried very hard to supress mass printing of Gutenberg's bible, reasoning that peasents exposed to the bible would fall afoul of their own misreadings and society would fall apart.

Damn, how many times have they cried wolf? and how many times have their grand public projects worked out? The crusades? The spanish inquisition? Racially based religous theories put into practice in colonisation? Where does this/these orginization/s get off?

the square trying to get into the circle is fundamentalist religion

[asher]

1. It's not as though the Bible was faxed down from heaven.

2. At the start of the Old Testament one of these said several different guys wrote some history into the Bible with the laws that the people at that time endorsed: explaining the society. Moses made the 10 Commandments which mostly made obselete the petty rules prior to them. Later, Jesus DIED so that these now-considered-petty rules didn't need to be worried about: so that people didn't have to bathe in the blood of lambs or whatever they felt obliged to do to be Christian (okay; Jewish at this point). Jesus effectively made it so that the only rules to be followed in the following of him are to love God above all others and neighbours as one's self. How is this not enough?

[bob]

wow, when did this happen?! i haven't heard anything... i mean, i'm on the other side of the world, but still...! so what happened, exactly? sounds scary, from what i've just read! my god, i can't belive that something like that could happen in my beautiful home country! i wish i could have been there to stand with you guys, and to tell those other people to shove it... you guys were all so brave!

[Asher]

Just a note that the asher above isn't me.

Your comment above is fairly appropriate, timing wise. There was another big Destiny march yesterday in Auckland, along with two counter-protests: A counter march and a celebration of diversity in the park. Lots more about it at Indymedia if you want to read.

[sandra]

Sorry about the inquisition, etc guys. Sorry.
I'm heterosexual and I went and observed the Destiny thing in Auckland, with dismay.

Love God, then Thy Neighbour as thyself, this is the essence of Christianity.

Mainstream churches are aware of and keeping an eye on the Destiny situation.

Respect yourselves and others and keep yourselves safe. Of true followers of Christ it is written "by their fruits you will know them." and this is measured by the two commandments above.

Thanks to all the gay people who have been kind and decent to me over the years.

Love from me.