Email to Murray McCully

Sent this off in response to the latest "mccully.co" newsletter from the Member for East Coast Bays.

From: Jordan Carter
Sent: Friday, 11 February 2005 12:06 p.m.
To: Murray McCully
Cc: murray.mccully@parliament.govt.nz; don.brash@parliament.govt.nz; katherine.rich@parliament.govt.nz
Subject: Re: mccully.co

Dear Murray,

I note your comments below.  Homosexuality is just a fact of life. You clearly do not like that fact, but you should acknowledge that a) homosexuality is a reality, it is not a "lifestyle choice", and b) it does help get health messages out to young gay people if there is some visibility of their existence in such campaigns.

When even Coronation Street, let alone Shortland Street, can handle gay characters, don't you think this sort of nasty new-right political correctness is - well - a bit tragic?

Best regards,

Jordan Carter

>
> Sisterhood Markets Homosexuality
>
> Seen the Health Department's "Hubba Hubba" ads,
> promoting condom use?  There are several different
> versions. Watch carefully and you will see that one
> features two young men, as they say, getting down
> to business.
>
> Now, leaving aside the minor fact that we, at the
> worldwide headquarters of mccully.co display
> unambiguously and rampantly heterosexual proclivities,
> there is an important issue here. We are now well past
> the debate on legalisation of homosexuality. And all
> manner of protections from discrimination against
> gays now exist in the law of the land. But this ad goes
> way further than that. Cynics suggest that its subliminal
> message is clearly that homosexuality is officially
> endorsed by the Government of the land (which has gone
> to the trouble of buying the ad) as one of the lifestyle
> options to be carefully considered by young people.
> Above all else, the ad will simply cause offence to
> many people.  The ad is being pushed hardest on TV2,
> where the largest audience of young people is to
> be found.
>
> The Sisterhood will no doubt defend the advertisement
> on the basis that it delivers a health message. But they
> could easily have done that without graphic depictions
> of sexual encounters of any kind. And they certainly did
> not need to spend taxpayers' cash rarking up the very
> un-gay folks at the worldwide headquarters.
>

Comments

[Tony]

I thought we'd moved beyond this kind of stuff, from so-called 'mainstream' political parties anyway. I could understand it if it was a small fringe group like Maxim or Destiny, but National? If they keeping going like this, Don and Murray may succeed in turning National into a small fringe party. Everyone knows the high rates of HIV/AIDs among men who have sex with men - its no secret. Surely such campaigns can help address it.

[Tony]

And also, this is reinforcing the idea that McCully wants to run a conservative morals campaign (like in the US). It's a fundamental misreading of New Zealand and New Zealanders and it wont work.

[Michael]

McCully is a dreadful bigot. As such, he's one of Labour's best campaign assets.

[Will]

Jordan, please pass on to Mickey Mouse et al this link: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6519 Cheers.

[Michael]

When was the last time the Government overtly promoted heterosexual lifestyles? Or asexual lifestyle?

If it's going to promote one, it's got to promote all. And seeing as it can't promote all (everyone's is different) it shouldn't promote any.

The campaign would be just as effective if it didn't show any couples.

But then McCully missed that point as well!

[dc_red]

What a disgusting windbag that McCully is.

He's clearly drawing extensively from US cultural conservatives, presumably because he thinks their arguments will propel National to power in NZ in the same way it does Republicans in the US.

On Feb 6, Frank Rich wrote in the NY Times:

"Secretary or Education Margaret Spellings hadn't even been officially sworn into the cabinet when she took on "Postcards From Buster," threatening PBS with decreased financing because one episode had the show's eponymous animated rabbit hobnobbing with actual lesbian moms while visiting Vermont to learn how maple syrup is made. Though Buster had in previous installments visited Muslims, Mormons, Orthodox Jews and Pentecostal Christians, gay couples (even when not identified as such on camera) are verboten to our new Secretary of Education. "Many parents would not want their young children exposed to the lifestyles portrayed in this episode," Ms. Spellings wrote in her threatening letter to Pat Mitchell, the C.E.O. of PBS."

Sound familiar? Perhaps McCully's secretary reads the NY Times for him and explains the good bits.

Why stop at gay couples though Muzza (if I may call you that?) Perhaps, as a committed athiest, I object to seeing Muslims, Mormons, Orthodox Jews and Pentecostal Christians (etc) on TV, and am worried about the effects portrayals of such persons may have on my children? ("what about the children?!")

To put it bluntly, I only want to see people like me (or even better, just me) on TV. I never want to see Murray McCully.

[Jordan]

Michael - have you seen the ads? Most of them are boy-girl. Some are boy-boy. I don't think either "promotes" anything. They just reflect reality.

I personally think the campaign is a joke - "No rubba no hubba hubba" hello!? - but that isn't the point.

[Greg Stephens]

I've heard a few complaints about it, but it is all from homophobic males who don't believe in allowing people to live their lifes.
I think mostly though they are wanting girl-on-girl kissing, but condoms don't really achieve anything for most lesbian sex acts.
I think that health issues need to be higher than morality issues. But McCully thinks people he doesn't agree with should suffer from STDs, what a nice man!

[hans]

The boy-on-boy ad show New Zealand males engaged in something that needs promoting. The other male-on-male stuff we daily see in newspapers and media is either violence on the battle field or the sports stadium. If you want to raise well-rounded young males, you got to show them that tenderness between males is not only possible but necessary for a healthy life in their families and with their friends. Good to see too that soccer is getting more popular too, and with it all the cuddling and kissing that goes with that. Not that I wouldn't mind seeing rugby blokes have a snog! :)

[Idiot/Savant]

National shows its true colours once again... but surely they're running out of room in the closet, having recently banished half the electorate there? And more importantly, surely they're running out of potential supporters? Dead white males aren't _that_ large a proportion of the population, you know...

[Craig]

Well, they are a core constituency for New Zealand First. Of course, undead white male status is a mandatory prerequisite for National or ACT spokesperson status, or hadn't you noticed that there are distinct Nosferatu resemblances insofar as Stephen Franks and The Donald are concerned?

Ta, Jords. I'll see to it that this gets recirculated somewhere incriminating.
Craig

[Millsy]

Storm in a teacup really - I doubt that seeing 2 males kissing on a TV would make me want to rush out and kiss the first bloke I see.....

[Melli]

Well, me and my mate were watching TV I think and we saw the guy-guy ad come on - we'd both seen the girl-guy one, and after the ad we both looked at each other and roared with laughter - we just about didn't notice....

It displays the vicious homophobia rampant in the National Party - McCully is over the hill as it is. He really needs to get a life if he thinks the Government is endorsing homosexual activities. Far better to sweep it under the carpet and segregate them out into gay communities and ghettoes where the RichWhites can come take photos.

And the Sisterhood? Grow up, honestly. The government really doesn't have credible opposition.

[Craig]

From a fiscal conservative perspective, it doesn't make any sense either. If young gay men get the message and have safe sex, there'll be less need for pharmaceuticals expenditure, outpatient staff renumeration time and medical equipment wear and tear costs. Ergo, gay male-targeted safe sex promotion saves the govt. money.

Craig

[Rob Davies]

Christ I wish that sanctimonious old fart would just curl up and retreat to the backbenches. Only six months to go.....

He's done such an appalling job advising Donald "I'm not comfortable with that assertion" Duck that he'll be quickly cut-free when the likes of POWER (grrrr), RICH (hissss) and KEY (cha-ching) take the reigns of the old Clydesdale known as the Nat Party.

What's more annoying is that he seems to think heterosexual men can be conned (by the vast gay-wing conspiracy) into thinking they're gay simply by watching a TV ad. I mean, hello?

He's clearly been sniffing twink. Dick.

[Craig Ranapia]

Um, sorry to disturb the orgy of mututal self-satisfaction, but here's the question McCully should have been asking: Will the Hubba Bubba campaign actually work?

Jordan, you're right to say it's a joke (in a 'holy shit, Granny's wearing hot pants!' kind of way) — but New Zealand's youth STD rates aren't. I don't see two gay boys semi-snogging on a couch reaching 1) teenagers who think their pricks are made of teflon anyhow, or 2) closet cases already into the psychotic delusion that they're 'not really queer' as long as they never know the name of the latest anonymous screw.

Call me crazy, but I don't think we're really going to make a dent in youth STD/HIV infections until the Health Ministry takes a leaf out of the LTSA's book — get graphic and unapologetically in your face with teenagers who think it all happens to someone else. At the very least, have the guts to take this as seriously as smoking. I don't see Labour or National having the political courage to do the job.

[Jordan]

So what do we do about it then, Craig? I sadly suspect you are probably right.

[robertp]

Diversity & tolerance!?

"Christ I wish that sanctimonious old fart would just curl up and retreat to the backbenches."

You and your ilk display a religious commitment to pansexual anarchy, every bit as bigoted and intolerant as those you vilify. Thanks for reducing sex to a commodity, removing love, and destroying the hopes and lives of a generation. May God have mercy on our nation.
http://jkalb.org/?q=node/6

[dc_red]

Did you bother to read McCully's original comments? He brags at some length about his supposed heterosexual prowess. There is no mention of "love". One can only imagine you'd like to get the state back into the bedroom to prevent the very "commodification" McCully suggests he's contributing to.

And I can tolerate McCully's right to free speech while also criticizing his use of it. It's not bigotry to suggest the man's a buffoon.

[Simon]

The best institution in NZ to run an anti-STD campaign would be the army. They have got the right experience and all sorts of graphic material needed. Preventing STD amongst young soldiers has been a medical military priority for the last 100 years.

[dc_red]

Good point Simon. Don't tell me that "pansexual anarchy" preceded the election of this Labour government? How on earth have previous generations survived with the "hopes and lives" destroyed? The mind boggles.

[rightkiwi]

You will recall that National's very own new star, Judith Collins, is on record as describing Murray McCully as "a bit of a dick". There is nothing surprising, then, about this article from his newsletter.

[robertp]

As I see it, Murray McCully is bemoaning the ever encroaching normalisation of marginal behaviour in our society, as a part of Labour's PC agenda. To red blooded kiwi males, seeing two blokes "getting it on" is offensive and gross. But in helengrad, objections on the grounds of respecting people's sensibilities are shouted down with deafening cries of "homophobia", "hate speech". I am sick of having weird and unhealthy lifestyles shoved down my throat (so to speak), and relentlessly promoted by the media, paid for by my tax dollars.

Another thing that really bugs me is that because of so-called sexual "liberation", half of the next generation will never know the love and security of a whole and happy family. Basically NZ these days is an incredibly selfish place.

[Millsy]

Whole and happy families come in different shapes and sizes "robertp". Mum, Dad, 2.2 kids, the white picket fence and the station wagon doesnt have the monopoly on family values anymore, especially if dad (who by the way is having an affair with his secretary) comes home drunk every night and beats the the crap out of mum, who despite her shattered self-worth and esteem, chooses to stay with him "for the sake of the children". Today, a happy family is likely to be Mum and the kids, or Dad and the kids, or Mum, Nana and the kids, just as much as Mum, dad and the kids. Its not a matter of who makes up the family, is a matter of whether the family environment is safe and stable.

Secondly, males have been "getting it on" since the dawn of time. Banning a TV ad isnt going to put a stop to it, and keeping it on isnt going to, as I said before, give heterosexual males the urge to put on their tight leather pants, play some Judy Garland, and run out to make out with the first bloke they saw.

[GeniusNZ]

You could make giving someone a std a crime (intentional or not) punishable by having to pay - lets say 3 times (depending on what the "catch rate" is, which helps to determine what the deterant required is) the full unsubsidized cost of the medical treatment, time off work pain and suffering etc or equivilent prison time (call me draconian).
That and make testing free if it is not already. No excuses - if you negligently put someone at risk you get the concequences.
And have a few public cases.

[robertp]

Millsy, I guess what am complaining about is more than a TV ad or a particular Govermnent policy, it's a sickness in our culture. The continual erosion of traditional christian morality seems unstoppable.
Sex is viewed no differently than ice cream, whereas in reality it's a spiritual act that touches the core of your personality, and DOES affect other people.
People aren't taking responsibility for their actions, they expect the Santa Claus state to fix up the mess they make.
The state is effectively subsidizing unwed motherhood, another completely unnecessary trend that is costing hard working kiwis.

[span(ner in the works)]

just how "traditional" is this christian morality you are talking about robertp? some of it only dates back to Victorian times, not that far at all, while other parts predate Christ entirely.

i don't think you are really talking about "traditional christian morality", you are talking about a very narrow view of society that doesn't include human beings as they really exist or relate. And as others have pointed out, it isn't just about what reality is now, it is actually a disconnect that the churches have had for centuries and centuries. EG In Ancient Greece it was quite normal for men to have homosexual relationships right up to, and possibly beyond, marriage.

the christian morality that i would support would be based on the simple concepts, that Jesus promoted, of Love Thy Neighbour and Do Unto Others etc. Both of these promote tolerance and acceptance of diversity, not the kind of approach you take.

I just don't have a problem with families made up differently from your ideal, as long as the relationships are healthy and happy. And for the record I come from your model family myself, so it's not that I have somehow been poisoned by some other form of upbringing. I see many admirable people every day who have been raised in a variety of ways, and good, functional families can exist without your white picket fence mentality.

[Stephen Cooper`]

Simple marketing technique suggests that ads that make you cringe are as effective as those that make you laugh. (and perhaps those that do both are the best?)

I'm sure the slogan "No Rubba, No Hubba Hubba" was not meant to be something that kids were going to get up and dance to.

I think the campaign has to be judged by if there is any impact on the statistics it is aimed at, not by how lame people think it is.

[robertp]

So Ancient Greece is your ideal society? Oh dear. It was a sick society in decline, lacking the vigour to defend itself. Much like Europe of today.

Slight digression: As the good folks at Maxim.org.nz so enthusiastically remind us, natural families are the building blocks of society, and legislation affecting such a basic institution should be very circumspect and broadly supported. Not rushed through as a part of some ideological attempt to "enlighten" a reluctant society.

I think that efforts to minimize sin and its harmful effects in society gel quite well with Jesus' message of love. Another thing He used to say quite a lot was "Repent!".

[span(ner in the works)]

where in my comment did I say Ancient Greece was my ideal society robertp? can't find it can you, because it's not there. stop reading in things that weren't written and you might understand better.

as to the second part of your comment (i have noted that you haven't really addressed any of the points i made) Jesus also said let he amongst you who is without sin cast the first stone...

[H.]

Yes those good folks at maxim, pushing right wing American idiocy.
Do we really want that for our country?
Promoting ignorance (creation) and hate (for anyone that's not a white hetro christian male).
I notice those so called christian values get forgotten when it comes to profit and oil wars.
Yes nz is a mostly christian nation. But Christianity has evolving and is nothing like what we see in America.

[dc_red]

If you don't like lifestyles you perceive as "weird and unhealthy" a fairly simple solution is not to engage in them.

More generally, it is unclear why your particular religious views (and particular understandings of "tradition" that relate more to bourgeois Victorian morality than anything else) should exercise a veto over government policy promoting public health messages (in the case of hubba hubba) and individual rights (in the case of CUB).

As for the Bible and its take on the "building block", what do you make of the "weird and whacky" family models portrayed in the Bible ... the polygamy, the compulsion to marry your brother's wife should he die, etc. etc.

www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/this_just_in/documents/03356537.asp

[stephen]

As my mate Rodger says, Maxim believes New Zealanders don't hate each enough and is working to remedy this.

Give me a break with the sick society in decline. Aside from the stupidity of looking to 2500 year old examples, the Greek predeliction for pederasty goes back as far as Homeric times, and therefore cannot be a symptom of a "sick society in decline" because it was there from the outset. In fact, logically, we ought to conclude that sodomy is what enabled the growth of Greek city states, the defeat of Troy, victory over the Persians and the empire of Alexander.(Not to mention logic, geometry, rhetoric, and all the other intellectual tools we owe the Hellenic buggers).

As to the assertion that "natural families are the building blocks of society", this begs far too many questions to be addressed in one comment, eg:
- what is a family?
- what is a natural family?
- why are "natural" phenomena of any kind more desirable?
- why not live in a cave and eat raw food as nature intended?
- is a wall of blocks an appropriate model for society?
- would you like to be another brick in the wall?

Etc.

It never ceases to amaze me how people revert to shouting slogans when they're not on sure ground.

[dc_red]

The last part of that link is

/documents/03356537.asp

[Millsy]

*sigh*

You know it really gets on my wick when someone whinges about the demise of "Christian traditional family values".

No doubt the Taliban lamented the demise of "traditional muslim family values" when they came to power.

When someone mentions moral values, it leaves me wondering about whether we are on the slippery slope to a Christian Taliban Theocracy.

[Millsy]

Anyway, I have found so-called Christians and belivers in God, and Bible enthusiasts to be more UN-holy than anyone else.

[robertp]

Why I prefer the "natural" family, is basically that it's a Christian ideal that has maintained the stability of society and been a haven of nurturing and love for generations. For a biblical defense, (noting why polygamy is wrong), see Shaw's exposition of the Westminster Confession at [http://www.reformed.org/documents/shaw/shaw_24.html]. Lots of material, too much for a comment here.

Jim Kalb [http://jkalb.org/?q=title/social+change+and+radicalism] notes that:
An attempt categorically to abolish sex roles as a legitimate principle of social organization is incomparably more radical than (for example) attempts by the Catholic Church to get rid of polygamy or divorce. It is more radical even than the Bolshevik attempt to get rid of private property — sex is more basic than money.

From http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/002/23.26.html :
Despite the hysterical rhetoric of the sexual Left, Christian involvement in this debate is not based on fear or hatred or lust for power. Instead, we engage in this debate because, with love and honor toward God, we love our neighbors and want the best for them.
...
Truth be told, heterosexuals have been poor stewards of marriage in recent decades. But the answer to heterosexual abuses does not rest in diluting the definition of marriage still further and hoping that Marriage Lite somehow improves on the real thing.

Lastly, spurious accusations against Maxim look like an attempt to prejudice the debate, before listening to what they actually say.

[robertp]

whoops, links should be:
http://jkalb.org/?q=title/social+change+and+radicalism
http://www.reformed.org/documents/shaw/shaw_24.html

[Millsy]

And what of us non-belivers? Do we get stoned or burnt at the stake.

I am answerable to myself and to society, not "God", "Allah", "Jehovah" or whoever.

[robertp]

You are welcome to your beliefs. But I find it hard to be silent while successive governments tear down social norms and destroy the tattered fragments of a culture, that once knew the difference between right and wrong.
http://no8wire.blogspot.com/2004/10/we-are-lost-and-vulnerable.html
http://www.catholic.org.nz/statements/0406moralliberalism.php

[span(ner in the works)]

"successive governments" aren't tearing down social norms, unless of course you mean the social "norm" of discriminating against people and hating them for stupid reasons that really make no difference to the intrinsic worth of a human being.

what has been happening, very slowly, is that governments have recognised the realities of everyday life for many New Zealanders, although there is still some way to go.

i would like to point out that parties who have pledged to overturn legislation like the Homosexual Law Reform Act of the mid 80s have never polled above the threshold, especially those who put those kind of moral issues as their main planks...

[stephen]

I think fundamentally Robert your views on the normal, the natural and the best are rooted in your religion. Without a presumption of a certain brand of Christianity I can't follow any of your arguments. Luckily for me, this is New Zealand, where we are reluctant to take religion and make it law.

As far as Maxim goes, I deny prejudice. I've heard what they have to say, I have observerd their dodgy stats, been annoyed by their dodgy tactics (eg the letters to the editor machine) and disagree with their principles. In that light, I'm hardly going to be impressed with an idea because they advocate it, not because I know nothing of them, but because I know too much about them.

[Beau]

Real mature McCully. Why don't you try doing something to prevent STDs yourself instead of criticising other people's efforts? What gives you the right to supposedly "speak for the taxpayers?" It's not like gay people pay taxes or vote is it? No wait a minute...

[span(ner in the works)]

Jordan - have you had a response from McCully at all?

[Mark]

Guess our kiddies aren't as tolerant as us right on adults. My daughter saw the ad (she is staying up far too late) and exclamed "ew gross, two boys are kissing on the telly".
She clearly needs indoctrination

[robertp]

Touché Mark.
"Liberals betray the weakness of their position through the vehemence of their assertions. What frees them from the obligation of debate is the claim that their opponents are out-of-the-mainstream extremists whose views need not be considered. Liberal control of the media and the bureaucracies of expertise have caused many to accept that claim in spite of its lack of substance. It should be obvious that is the liberals, who insist on eradicating the traditional and even biologically-based institutions by which men have always lived in favor of purely formal arrangements, who are the extremists. In its public confrontation with liberalism the Right should insist on that point." (jkalb.org)