Go the Greens

I saw Rod Donald and Jeanette Fitzsimons' speeches to the Greens' candidates conference at the weekend, and enjoyed reading both of them. I also read with interest John Armstrong's piece on them in the Herald this morning.

While some of the lines the Greens co-leaders used are a bit laughable, being little more than cheap shots at what is by and large a very good government, I took great heart from the positioning that is visible in the speeches. They clearly want to be in government, and they are clearly pitching to the left of the political spectrum in an effort to build up their vote from Labour's left flank.

While it might seem a little odd for me to say it, as a Labour Party activist, I am quite relaxed about some of our left vote going to the Greens. A comparative look at the policy agendas of the 1999-2002 and 2002-2005 governments indicates the influence the Alliance had, and the current term has definitely seen a more conservative government on some economic issues than last term did.

I am not one of those Labour people who thinks that my party has all the answers, and I think an injection of more stridently pursued left wing ideas into government would be a good thing.

If Labour insists on pitching to the centre, as it has done on public spending, on trade, on justice issues and so on, then it will hold the centre come the election. A coalition with the Greens would pull back some of those issues, and give a more visibly progressive government a chance to emerge.

To me that is good because the only way to engage the public and draw the centre in a leftward direction is to have the debates - with the public, visibly, and honestly. The current situation, with Labour chained to the United Future Party or dependent on New Zealand First, prevents that happening. Pandering to conservatism needs to be balanced by something.

A Labour/Green coalition would be a strong, but worthwhile, remedy to such pandering after this year's election.

Comments

[Millsy]

A Labour-Green coalition would be a desirable outcome in this years election....BUT. A very big but....

The Greens will need to win a sizable number of seats in parliament to be able to gain some suitable amount of leverage, and therefore policy concessions from Labour. I'm not talking about 9 or 10 seats here, I'm talking about 15-20 seats. I know that sounds impossible, but you need those amount of seats to get some decent policy gains. The Greens are more better placed than the Alliance, due to the fact that they do not have a Jim Anderton who will hog the limelight and will impose his autocratic leadership style on the party, and thats where I felt the Alliance went wrong. I think it is good that the Greens are making an effort to fill the political void that the demise of the Alliance left, and that I think that focusing on issues other than GE will give them some more votes. I think the Greens really blew it with their uncompromising stance on GE last election. I still cringe when I think of JF declaring that she will not enter into a coalition with Labour if it lifts the GE moratorium (which it was always was going to do), and that it was going to withdraw confidence and supply. I felt that as soon as the Greens took that position, it was never going to be part of a government at that time. All it did was drive Labour into the arms of the kooks at United Future. (I personally have nothing to fear from NZ First, as NZ First have a lot of left wing policies) Hopefully, the Greens would have learnt their lesson from that.

I think the Greens would have a lot to offer the nation as a party in government, and their accession to power need not be the end of the world. The Green Party in Germany is part of their government,and Germany is still humming along.

Only time can tell I guess, but like I said, the Greens NEED to win a sizable amount of seats. less than 10 will not do. between 10 and 15 will be OK, but the magic figure needs to be 15 or over. That, is the key.

[Sock Thief]

If the Greens grow up. A big if. Perhaps the speech is an indication of this but I remain skeptical. The impression I still get from them is that if they have any say then we'll be reduced to bartering organic kumara for socialist sugar from Cuba. Kedgley having discovered that socialist sugar is actually healthy compared to the evil capitalist type.

[Millsy]

Whats with you Sock Theif? You are always running down the greens. Is it because they actually think that workers should actually have the the right to join unions, and have fair wages in conditions, and they should not have to lose their jobs to third world workers who are little more than slaves? Or is it because they actually have priciples whereby we shouldnt actually trade with Third World dictatorships?

What are you afraid of?? jobs and high wages, universal health and education? telling China to piss off until it fixes its human right record. Ive read your blog, and it disgusts me some times.

[Millsy]

And whats wrong with Cuba? They have universal health and education there.

[geniusNZ]

but jordan you run the risk in a green Labour coalition of the greens embarassing you rather like NZfirst embarassed national (but potentially much worse) during their term together.

Most NZders even some ACT voters are OK with labour but they tend to hate the greens with a passion dont let them see you as a package deal. I have friends quite happy to vote labour to boost their numbers just to keep the greens weak.

I suggest you should stick to the minority government theme that way you can play the greens and nzfirst etc off against eachother.

[Millsy]

Voters hate the greens for the sole reason that they give a damn about humanity and the world we live in, nothing else. They hate the greens because they want New Zealanders to have high paying jobs in manufacturing.

[Mike Collins]

Yes Millsy it's all part of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy - VRWC. Don't be foolish.

[David Farrar]

Indeed 93% of NZers who do not vote Green do so because we all hate humanity and the world.

Does Millsy's world allow visitors from this one?

[Kane]

Yes, I read Jeanette's speech and relative to tertiary education and workers issues, she was relatively on the mark.

The only thing that annoys me about the Greens sometimes is that they're not always very forthcoming about how they're going to pay for things. At least the Alliance always provides an alternative budget (fully costed) and is not backwards in coming forwards about progressive taxation.

I certainly hope the Greens are back in parliament post the 2005 General Election. If they aren't then parliament will be a very sad state of affairs for a liberal left voice.

[Jordan]

Oh I think we'll be playing a classic defense on the Greens. Labour won't be out campaigning for them, just as National wouldn't be out there campaigning for ACT. I find the Greens a good deal less scary than ACT, but I would say that...

[Gooner]

Millsy, if you like Cuba so much why don't you go and live there?

As for the Greens, I was very surprised by some of their policy in the '99 election. As an ACT voter I found some of it quite amenable. I suppport decriminalistion of Cannabis on a pure ideological level. Not so sure I want to shit in my own back yard though!

[stephen]

What's wrong with Cuba? A totalitarian dictatorship that persecutes its own citizens, that's what. Wake me up when the proletariat's actually in charge, ok?

Jeez Millsy, play right into the Sock Thief's cunningly-laid trap, eg?

[Hobbo]

Some of my mates went to Cuba on the way to a Windies Tour following the Kiwis - nice place to visit but fuck living there they said - they drive around in 1950s cars that are all but rooted (along with just about everything else there) but piss is cheap as chips. If its so good why do so many of them try to bugger off to the US I wonder.

[span(ner in the works)]

do people really "hate" the Greens? i mean people outside the political elite btw.

I think people feel uncomfortable about the Greens because they like their creature comforts and have a view of the Greens that is a bit out of whack with many (but not all) of the Greens - that of technological luddites who want to return to living in the forests and eating roots for tea.

And of course there's the discomfort created by knowing someone else's approach is more just and right but not wanting to take that path because it would be hard and would involve sacrifice.

[looke]

I didn't think too badly of the greens... until I read their policies. Strangely I thought that since the greens were liberal that they might get on with act, you know, in a liberal to liberal way on some ideas. Now I know that could never happen.

[GPT]

You are a brave man wanting to do any deals with the Greens. I guess it couldn't be as bad as Winston but it would have to be close.

[make tea not war]

Well...this swinging voter is definitely swinging towards the Greens. Good for them for calling Labour on not going far enough on addressing child poverty issues- and also for challenging the eternal harping on growth and GDP as the answer to everything.

I can't get very excited about Labour if the best that can be said about them is that they are not National. I think the Greens could help to keep them on the "right" track. And I'm completely sure Helen Clarke can handle it really.

[Millsy]

I'd choose Cuba over the USA anyday. At least in Cuba you wont die on the floor of an emergency room because you dont have insurance.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Simon]

I recall the Bolger hate of the 1990’s and all of society’s ills would be cured by full employment. The Greens couldn’t stop moaning about the failed NZ economy. But now for the Greens a successful economy that employs more people than ever is not what its cracked up to be.

At least Labor is consistent. Clarke wants to turn NZ into another Sweden. Sure Sweden is slow death but at least the goal is understandable. But the Greens are all over the place. If Clarke wants a south pacific Sweden then the Greens would assist but they could poison the whole deal we could have a south pacific 1950’s Poland.
I don’t think Labor will take the chance with the Greens. The risk is just not worth it.

[GeniusNZ]

Milsy,
Contrary to urban mythology
http://www.mccapny.org/guide/chap10b.htm
In the USA the doctors dont have a right to let you die on the floor of an emergency room because you dont have insurance.

[David Farrar]

The funny thing about choosing Cuba over the USA, is that we know what most people would choose. Cubans on an almost daily basis risk their lives to go to the USA. I have not heard of many people leaving the USA to go to Cuba.

Perhaps Millsy might want to reflect on the fact that in Cuba he would be in prison for having posted on a blog criticised the Government.

[Millsy]

And what the hell is wrong with full employment Simon?? I dont see anything wrong with it.....Workers get high wages and good conditions and not slave labour..

Bolger is an inhuman monster Simon.

As for Cuba, you cannot explain away the highest literacy rate in Latin America, universal health care, which the US has failed to implement, universal education to university level, the fact that Cuba sends doctors and teachers to Third World countries while the US just sends soldiers and CIA agents, Cuban teachers were even here at Te Wanaga o Aotearoa helping out with programmes that taught Maori how to read? Far from the evil commies you think they are. And what about the fact that before Castro came to power, Cuba was run by the Mob?? Would you rather the Mafia rnn Cuba again like it used to?

Cuba is not perfect, but is any country perfect?? You call Castro a dictator, but I dont see you right-wingers say the same thing about the Chinese administration.

[Mike Collins]

Here's a right-winger who says the Chinese Govt is a dictatorship (although it is nowhere near as bad as it used to be when they tried to force everyone to be socialist).

Millsy you state that good education and health care are standard in Cuba. What this statement fails to convene however is that the standard of living in Cuba is very poor. Good education and good health systems are not ends in themselves - they must lead to increased standards of living. You have not proved that Cuba has these standards of living. In fact you ignore what DPF said when he stated "The funny thing about choosing Cuba over the USA, is that we know what most people would choose. Cubans on an almost daily basis risk their lives to go to the USA. I have not heard of many people leaving the USA to go to Cuba."

If universal health care and education standards are the be all and end all (assuming the USA is very poor at these - it's not but just for arguments sake) then wouldn't the reverse be true?

Yes Cuba send medical teams to Africa. Yet they persecute those at home who disagree.

High wage rates? You must be kidding. If this was the case then perhaps the standard of living would not be so bad.

But if you want to live there be my guest I'm sure Fidel will welcome you.

[geniusNZ]

> As for Cuba, you cannot explain away the highest literacy rate in Latin America

just to nit pick... from the UNDP human development index (note not all countries are included here)

1 Estonia 99.8
1 Latvia 99.8
2 Barbados 99.7
2 Belarus 99.7
2 Poland 99.7
3 Lithuania 99.6
3 Russia 99.6
3 Slovenia 99.6
3 Ukraine 99.6
4 Kazakhstan 99.4
5 Hungary 99.3
5 Tajikistan 99.3
6 Uzbekistan 99.2
7 Moldova 99.0
8 Samoa 98.7
9 Guyana 98.6
10 Armenia 98.5
10 Bulgaria 98.5
10 Italy 98.5
10 Mongolia 98.5
11 Croatia 98.4
11 Trinidad & Tobago 98.4
12 Romania 98.2
13 South Korea 97.9
14 Spain 97.7
15 Uruguay 97.6
16 Greece 97.3
17 Cyprus 97.2
18 Maldives 97.0
19 Argentina 96.9
20 Cuba 96.8

Hmm sorry argentina is in south america so i think you were wrong about that literacy thing so also is trinidad and tobago and Guyana. So what you meant was at best 4th in latin america (not all are included so it might be lower). I note they have a bit of an advantage over places like brazil or argentina in that those countries have a very large "out back". In the same way that it is not surprising barbados or trinidad have high literacy levels.

what does this show us?
well samoa clearly has one of the best education systems on the planet - far better than south korea *looking confused* - either that or adult literacy is effected by all sorts of things.

> universal education to university level

hmm cuba has 84% secondary enrolment at school. The US has 95% for the same indicator. argentina and uraguy fall somwhere in between.

> the fact that Cuba sends doctors and teachers to Third World countries while the US just sends soldiers and CIA agents

the US sent more practical aid to the tsunami victims than anyone else so the US does send aid even if it is less as a percentage of GDP it is likely that it is more in absolute (or per capita) terms. AND if you didnt notice cuba sends soldiers overseas for example to africa despite their limited resources. I dont remembr singapore sending anyone overseas maybe we should model ourselves on them or somalia for that matter....

> You call Castro a dictator, but I dont see you right-wingers say the same thing about the Chinese administration.

really? you obviously dont read the "right" sources. In general however china is to strong to complain about now. if your not careful china will convince all the states of the world to deny you exist like with taiwan or will annex you like tibet.

[Sock Thief]

Sorry to throw Cuba into the mix, it was a joke.

As for the Greens, I have respect for Bradford and Tanczos and agree with some of their policies such as on drugs. But I would prefer them to have no influence on trade and foreign affairs.

Millsy and other Green supporters should stop thinking that people (especially centre-left voters) don't like the Greens because they don't like their social justice policies. I belong to 2 unions and have been involved in activist politics in the past. I'm not impressed with the Greens because, amonst other things, of their religious-style objection to GE and the fact that Keith Locke of all people is their spokesperson for Foreign Affairs and Human Rights. And Kedgely is a loop.

[Millsy]

Well for your information, the Greens, headed by Keith Locke, have been the only party to question the human rights records of the likes of China and Burma, as well as draw attention to US War Crimes in Iraq.

As for Cuba, I know about Cuba's parcipiation in providing military assistance to the Angolan and Ethiopian regimes during the 1970's, but I also recall the USA backing the Mobutu regieme in Zaire as well, among other nations.

OK, so I was a little bit wrong about Cuba's ranking in literacy, but 4th is still good going, and 96% is still good. Cuba has also provided medical school scholarships to students in Latin America, has a Microbiology recearch centre that has made some significant research in areas such as organic farming - in which it is a world leader. It has pioneered treatement methods of HIV and AIDs, and has gotten the rate of infection down to 0.04%. It recently opened an orthapeadics clinic in Yemen. And yes, it has sent aid workers to the tsuami area. The reason that the USA was the largest contribtor was becasue it is considerably large, and was able to.

There is democracy in Cuba, whereby municipal elections are held every 5 years to the national assembly, or parliament.

Cuba is really no worse than any other country, and people who start on Cuba's human rights record should look at what is happening in the USA with the PATRIOT Act.

[Sock Thief]

Millsy, I have soft spot for Cuba too and the US has played a part in Cuba stagnating under Castro. The US is not blameless on many issues. As for Locke, he opposed military intervention against Milosevic.

[Ranald]

I thought I'd just throw a comment in here to assure people that not all prospective Green voters idolise Cuba. Sure, Millsy, it has a good health system for a third world country, but it also has an incredibly brutal human rights record, and is one of the least safe places in the world to criticise the government. It seems bizarre to me that the Greens, who are the most consistently outspoken Kiwi political party in favour of civil rights, should attract someone who sees nothing at all wrong with Cuba, and is prepared to brush off the murder, torture and arbitrary imprisonment the Cuban government metes out to dissidents by flippantly noting that 'no country's perfect'.

I suspect (indeed, hope) Millsy's comments are motivated mainly by ignorance of what Cuba's government is really like. But they are completely out of step with the beliefs espoused by the Green party.

[Hobbo]

"It has pioneered treatement methods of HIV and AIDs, and has gotten the rate of infection down to 0.04%."

Funny - I thought Fidels idea of addresing the AIDs issue was to stick em all on an island and leave them there.

"As for Cuba, you cannot explain away the highest literacy rate in Latin America"

Who gives one - thats like Henry Blofield saying "thats the record partnership for the ninth wicket between two left handers from wellington playing for New Zealand against the Pakis at the basin reserve in the 2nd session after lunch on a Friday afternoon in March" - ie means fuck all

[Asher]

"And what about the fact that before Castro came to power, Cuba was run by the Mob?? Would you rather the Mafia rnn Cuba again like it used to?"

Millsy - That was a stupid comment. It's no different to right-wingers saying that because I oppose the war in Iraq, I want Saddam back in power. It's blatantly not true in either case, and really wasn't a good call to make.

I also have to agree with what Ranald said - Cuba is not a country to be idolised by any stretch of the imagination.

[Millsy]

Really, come on. I think you would find that those 'dissidents' who have been imprisoned in Cuba were those who actively sought to bring down the Cuban government by force. It is no different to say, someone getting locked up for plotting to assassinate Bush and overthrow the US government. If say, you and a few friends decided to plot to assassinate Helen Clark, there is no doubt that the constabulary will be knocking on your door as well. Indeed, several Cuban agents are being held in the USA at the moment, for merely trying to thawrt attempts by Cuban-Americans in Florida to overthrow Castro (and presumably, dismantle the institutions such as universal health and education that he implemented.)

I think you would also find that Fidel establised a sanotarium for HIV and AIDS sufferers so they could be treated and be able to live a longer life with their illnesses. He didnt "stick them on an island and left them there".

[Ranald]

Could you be any more clueless about the subject you're talking about, Millsy? Check out what Amnesty International has to say about Cuba:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250082003?open&of=ENG-CUB

"In the aftermath of the wave of mass arrests that began on 18 March 2003 in Cuba, Amnesty International is concerned that 77 people may be prisoners of conscience, detained for the non-violent exercise of their rights to freedom of expression and association... Those detained include journalists, owners of private libraries and pro-democracy members of illegal opposition parties, including promoters of the Proyecto Varela. All of the detainees remain imprisoned without charge, and the whereabouts of some of them is unknown...

In addition to the detentions, other high profile opposition figures have been harassed. Plainclothes security agents were posted outside the homes of Oswaldo Payá Sardiñas, leader of a citizens’ initiative on democratic change; former prisoner of conscience Elizardo Sánchez Santacruz, of the CCDHRN, a prominent human rights organisation in Cuba that is illegal but tolerated by the authorities; and former prisoner of conscience Vladimiro Roca Antúnez, son of the late Cuban Communist Party leader Blas Roca.

This crackdown comes only a few months after a mass arrest of activists in December 2002, when Oscar Elías Biscet González, president of the unofficial Fundación Lawton de Derechos Humanos, Lawton Human Rights Foundation, was detained with 16 other dissidents after they attempted to meet in Havana to discuss human rights."

And that's just one report I plucked more or less at random from the voluminous quantity of pages at Amnesty documenting Cuban human rights abuses.

[Tyrone]

Oh, *that* Cuba.