Thanks, Greens!

As part of their negotiations to support the Prisoners and Victims Claims Bill, it seems (according to NewstalkZB) the Greens have scored a minor coup - the creation of an independent human rights watchdog for the prison service.

This should have two good effects: tighter scrutiny of the Prison Service (which does appear to need it) and thus, hopefully, less abuse of prisoners; and second less chance for prisoners to successfully sue the Crown for abuse of their rights.

A friend more closely involved let me know that the Select Committee's Report on the Bill (see pp. 8-9) actually recommended this step. It's nice to see a progressive change to what is a less disagreeable piece of legislation than the initial knee-jerk would have led one to expect.

Good on the Greens, and good on the Government. 

Comments

[circlequill]

Gosh, that's awfully nice for prisoners. Too bad the government and the Greens can't get together to lengthen sentences for violent crimes and make our society safer.

[tim barclay]

This is really the biggest piece of bull shit this Government has done. The dead giveaway is the sunset clause. Why except to try and have a bet both ways. On the one hand you satisfy that small constituency that think pirsoners need more rights than what they have got which includes access to the courts and a legal aid system and the Ombudsmen. But on the other hand you try and have another bet with that constituency that think prisoners have enough rights and you satisfy them with the phrase, "do not worry this will not be around for long". Really this is a joke except it is legislation.

[Simon]

Under Labor the prison numbers are at record levels (despite a big fall in unemployment) and it is putting stress on the existing prison systems that is massive overcrowding. This added government bureaucracy moves issues nowhere and looks to be an exercise in bean counting and spin, which Labor excels at.

PARS already perform the functions of a human rights watch group for prisoners and does it very well.

[Paul]

My view (and attack me for having a personal view), is that if society was a better place, then crime would fall, but then that's wishfull thinking. We all know bad buggers steal and kill just for kicks eh.

the old, band aid at the bottom of the cliff vs intervention at the top debate.

How long one need in prison? 25x life sentences - a la US laws. three stikes and you're out? Death? now there's a deterrant that's worked all over the world?

[Jeremy]

Yeah, lengthening prisioners sentences instead of providing any real form of rehabilitation (which, like it or not, is the case in New Zealand) works like a hole in the head.

[Chris]

The Bill is totally unnecessary and abhorrent. Yet again this government has a knee-jerk reaction to a non-issue to try and appease the masses...

[circlequill]

Jeremy, if you can show me 100% rehabilitation from any of the programmes the Greens or Labour put forward to "rehabilitate" violent offenders, then I will change my mind about the need for violent offenders to serve longer sentences. It is purely a matter of protecting the public, in my view.

NZ needs a zero tolerance policy when it comes to violence. That includes violent criminals, child-beating, domestic violence, prison guard violence towards prisoners--you name it. Just because the country's favourite sport is often violent and bloody does not mean the nation's laws need to encourage violence.

Prison should be about rehab, yes. But it should also be about protecting the non-violent public from those violent sods who land themselves in the criminal justice system. I have little time for those who are willing to let violent criminals back into society to do more of the same.

[Simon]

If you treat prisoners badly by locking them up in crappy prisons and don’t help them when they get out they will just go on committing crimes. Either way you need bigger prisons or rehab. Under Labor you got some mickey mouse in between system that is no system and the dumb ass greens have brought into it.

Thanks for coming Greens!

[Paul]

So Circlequill,

"I have little time for those who are willing to let violent criminals back into society to do more of the same". Where does your rehab fit into this?

Are we locking them up forever, or just 75 years and then claiming they are rehabillitated because they go areound in a walking frame.

This is a complex issue, seemingly make simple by the right just claiming that the left is soft on criminals, please.

[spector]

I liked the idea of making parents of young offenders financially responsible for crimes they commit when they are minors. The shame of having your Mum/Dad/Grandparent have to suffer because of something you had done would be a pretty good deterant early on.
Thoughts?

[stef]

If minors are committing crime the last thing they are going to be worrying about is mom and dad... hell it would encourage the true hellion to go out and commit more crime to stick one to the 'rents!

[Lucyna]

Spector, it might not be 'shaming' to some, and instead it might turn out to be a way of getting back at the olds. What you're talking about is crime by association - a bad road to go down.

[Craig Hall]

The gut reaction is that people want criminals to get longer and longer sentences (at ~$50,000 per prisoner, per annum), in poorer and poorer conditions, and then to come out as fully rehabilitated and useful members of society.

For some reason, criminals who fail to come out of prison fully rehabilitated are blamed for this, as if it's exclusively, and entirely their fault. When employers won't touch them with a ten foot pole, the criminals are blamed for being lazy, good-for-nothing, and so forth.

People also want higher health and education spending, a reasonable State superannuation scheme both now and in the future... and meaningful tax cuts. We also don't want inflation ruining our party and lowering our buying power, but we still want meaningful tax cuts.

[Craig Ranapia]

*ahem* Not to wonder back to the point, but one has to wonder why Labour didn't put up a properly designed and scrutinised bill that could win the support of a majority of MPs.

Without the frothing rhetoric, I have to agree that this is bad legislation full stop. Bad legislation doesn't become better because it has a "sunset clause" attached.

[michele cabiling]

Half the commentators on this thread have the right (sic) idea, the other half are deluded idiots.

The leftist view is that there is no such thing as a criminal, they're all "victims."
This stems from the Marxist notion that individuals are the product of their social and economic environment.

Any pushing the line "be nice to hard crims and then hopefully they'll be nice to us" needs to go boil their head to clear their thoughts.

[Jordan]

Who cares what Marxists think? I've yet to come across one on my blog.

And, if you want to go around calling people idiots, Michele, you're not going to be posting here much. Either keep a civil tongue in your head, or go somewhere else.

[Drone]

Great!!! Another bureaucracy created, another mill or two from the long-suffering taxpayers pockets for the glorious cause of prisoner's rights. Let me predict, this watchdog will spend months on fact finding and huis, produce a few reports that no-one will read and bleat a couple of times in the media when a prisioner's feelings are hurt. I don't see how this directly could reduce the likelihood of the govt being sued Jordan, that is surely a question of law and the actions of the govt's representatives (prison service) not the existence of a watchdog. This is not a priority imho.

[Jordan]

If it does that, it should, and will, be abolished.

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[GeniusNZ]

Michele,
the left are correct
"individuals are the product of their social and economic environment."

There is no point arguing with such a fact BUT there is a second part to the logic that they are missing. Because if you excuse all your decisions as being a result of the environment there is nothing left to define as "you" seperate from those influences. I.e. if we want to punish evil the person doing that person IS the evil (because the argument denies anything to differentiate the sin from the sinner).

Lets say there is a bad man called Marylin Manson made evil by some combination of things. There is no "true Manson" that is not evil - he is the embodyment of that combination of bad experiences and you are putting all those bad experiences in jail when you put him in jail.
this system works because then the general public are protected from those bad experiences or the evil person (depending on how you want to look at it).

Since each person is the result of their environment every person has a reason for everything that they do - it might be any of a million reasons and each is equally "valid" for example the reason might be "I have a genetic disorder that makes me want to kill people".

the funniest thing is when we let some peopel off because we know why they did somthing. EVERYONE has a reason.
If you excuse half the people because you understand them and dont excuse the other half because you dont you are punishing people because of your lack of knowledge.

There is not much point looking for the reason as a defence for the person because we know the reason exists because IT MUST exist - but why should we care?

[Paul]

"The leftist view is that there is no such thing as a criminal, they're all "victims."

Do you people have any idea what the left think?

We're not all stuck at the converntional level of moral development as proposed by Kholberg, as illustrated time and time again by the right.

All victims, please. The only victims here are those of the right, who environ(mentally) have become conditioned to illogical stereotyping.

Kohlberg's 6 stages of moral reasoning

Preconventional level
Punishment and obedience orientation
Instrumental hedonism
Conventional level
Social approval morality
Law and order
Postconventional level
Social-contract
Principled morality