A further clarification

David also cites IRD as more proof that Labour's calculator is wrong.

The IRD student loans calculator does not adjust the threshold where repayments begin. While Labour has been in government, it has increased the threshold by the rate of CPI inflation every year.

Labour's calculator takes that into account. The IRD's calculator does not. Taken with the exposition of the assumptions on Labour's calculator in Mallard's release, anyone can now understand how the three interact.

The key thing that nobody - even National - is disputing, is that Labour's policy will leave loan-holders better off. And National's attacks are simply wrong. Get over it.

Thanks to Beehive sources for the hat-tip.

Comments

[tim barclay]

I note with amusement Mallard cites as a virtue that the Treasury was not used as it is party political. What rot, just shows this has not been properly costed and is a rushed job. Labour is in full panic. Mallard is a lier for no other reason when he said National is being controlled by Washington.

[Tony]

Pot calling kettle black one thinks. When Labour was in opposition they provided a fully costed alternate budget. Not only have National not provided that, but the electorate is yet to see their tax cuts (and health/educatio cuts) policy. It is National's credibility that is on the line here. And everyone knows there numbers can't possibly add up.

[Insolent Prick]

So when you give thanks to "beehive sources", what you're really saying is that taxpayer-funded Labour Party supporters have nothing better to do with their taxpayer-funded jobs but browse through your blog everywhere, and that they use you as their puppet to spread propaganda to the public?

[Jordan]

I deal in facts. You sure got your name right.

[tim barclay]

Jordan the meatworks who provided a smoking room for their workers is now having this shut down by over zealous health officials. Half their workers smoke so now they have to stand out in the freezing cold to have a cigarette. Do not think this issue is dead Jordan but I think you might be if something is not done about this. A diversion I know but I think a little problem is brewing here. Bit like the cats in the Dairies in 1975. Bring on Muldoon

[Jordan]

Nice attempt at evasion, Tim. Given the smoking ban has public support at around 80%, I don't think that's going to become a problem.

[tim barclay]

Don't think so Jordan, elections are decided by small numbers of voters who swing on some issue that irritates them. These are freezing workers who are solid Labour they will stay at home Jordan. I don't mind, really I don't, keep the policy please.

[Paul]

Jesus even ACT have provided for years full costed policy.

[Paul]

Tim,

you should be on the starship enterprise, with your deflector shields.

You have nothing, so you try and raise every single little point you ca, and sorry mate as Jordan said 80% of the electorate is in favour of the bill.

460.000 students, might just be the small swing vote that the Labs need to get in.

funny, you announce good policy, nearly half a MILLION voters are estatic and you get these responses.

[Nostradamus]

Latest poll has Labour and National even! However National combined with UF and NZF are just enough to get the conservatives over the line.

I don't know whether this was before or after the loans announcement.

The waves wax and wane as always- I'm not going to make a prediction, even with my 480 years of experience.

[tim barclay]

Back to the student loan calculator. A student loan debt is a unfunded tax liability that is paid off out of taxes. By building in growth assumption and the high figure for inflation the Labour Party is really saying that under them you can expect to be paying higher taxes in the future under them. Well thank you very much.

[sham 69]

Paul/Tony, what a complete and contemptible ^@%$#& you both are, but I digress.

Clearly the Labour credence of acceptance of diversity, and tolerance doesn’t apply to anybody perceived as being a non-conformer. You snide, pompous little twerps. Any post which clearly enrages you into a fit of pique, you respond to without any rationale on policy. Instead you resort to a volley of intemperate, derisionary weasel words.

Varsity engendered, mind inculcated socialist adherents, ranging from Helen Clark, all the way down to junior toadies like Jordan and yourselves are ALL the same, its absolutely pathetic. You've no rational ideology, only a belief in your own highly smug moral superiority, with a convergent condescending, self righteous attitude, a refusal to consider anything but the most fundamental notions, plus a willingness to spout off absolute twaddle, no matter how dishonest, ridiculing or contradictory, just to fend off anybody who dares to be recalcitrant enough to question your perception of the “truth”. You people would mud wrestle your own grandmothers for the opportunity of power.

Paul Le Cunte, you need to realise that campus based socialism is just a phase you’re going through, the indoctrination will eventually subside and you’ll regain some semblance of independent thought once more. You’ll still be a complete ^@%$#&, that’s your birthright, but at least you'll be a complete ^@%$#& capable of some thoughts of your own. One day perhaps, it will come to pass that there actually are some trendy leftist theorems you may choose NOT to uncritically embrace. I’ll simply confine myself to saying this. Au revoir, ^@%$#& !

P.S - I bet you used to get beaten up regularly at school.

Legend of Symbols:
& - R
% - N
# - E
@ - A
^ - W
$ - K

[Paul]

Sham

Boy are you a clever wordsmith, even managed to twist my name. Funny nobody has ever done that before, not even my 4th form girls (the most evil breed of humans imaginable).

So did your teacher help you with the symbols and spelling?

I'm a 36yr old father of 1 with a family income over the 100K mark. But sorry to disapoint you after such kind thoughts.

imagine that a wealthy person sticking to their ideals rather than selling out to the dark side.

But please enough with the compliments, it flatters you.

Your views were aired, but was there a point to your virtiol?

How did you get so bitter and twisted over other peoples ideals. I mean I don't have a bomb strapped to my body, I have never fiddled with kids, never invaded a grannies flat, pulled legs off spiders.

I have a set of ideas that are formed around the basic principal of respect for humanity, although folk like you to push that a little.

Sleep well. I'd hate to come across you on the day you aren't on your prozac.

[sham 69]

Clap Clap, My working class hero. What was it I said about a smug, moral superiority ?

You ^@%$#&

[Craig Ranapia]

Paul & Tony:

*Yawn* Front up with the full, independent costings and let's talk. Oddly enough, all three calculators are pretty meaningless to me because I do a lot of temp and short contract work - and there are extensive period when I'm out of the market for health reasons. Pretty difficult to work that when you're assuming fixed, and steadily increasing, incomes.

[Paul]

So then Craig the prospect of no interest being added to you loan isn't a positive thing, espically when you are not earning money.

Christ how can such a positive thing for you be the bain of so much anger from the right.

Fuck, times when my business is fluctuating, I was shitting myself about the loan getting bigger.

[Paul]

So sham, your modus operandi, is to abuse the fuck out of someone, wait for a response, then add to the insults?

I'm in awe of your political repartee, succinct and found on principals.

But which is that the moral high ground, or simply taking the piss? Ohhhhh

Your compliments now have me blushing.

meanwhile a little boy waits .... for a tax policy.

[Logix]

So what do we know about "tstempher@ihug.co.nz" who I could cheerfully name here in public but I won't because it might cause Jordan more trouble than it is worth.

1. I doubt very much that he would say these things to your face Paul, or anyone else's. In a pub such excitability would see a number of large well-built males offer to take him for a cool-off outside. But on the net he thinks he is anomynous (which he isn't) and spouts off this playground silliness. This makes him a coward.

2. He posts a long string of personal insults and crass word play that has no conceivable purpose other than to cause you hurt. This is indictive of a probable psychopath.

3. He accuses others of using "intemperate, derisionary weasel words", while doing the same himself. This definitely makes him a fool as well, because in real life he is accustomed to other people believing his fluent lies, but he overlooks the fact that in writing to a blog, we can judge his words at face value and reach our own conclusions.

4. This person is driven by jealousy and fear. Personally I read his post with a kind of detached despair, and wonder if the human race is to be forever held back in these dark ages by this form of immature behaviour.

[GeniusNZ]

I have to say ranting like that only makes your own argument seem like that of a child and the other side look positively dignified when they dont stoop to your level.

cripes code letters for soft swear words, can you believe it?

[Craig Hall]

Remember, socialist isn't an insult. Socialism is great, in theory. The thing stopping it working in practice is the existence of extreme greed.

[Paul]

Craig.

Why should having socialist ideas be the target of such vitriol? I know that so many people in here have views from extreme racist homphobia (hobo), corporatist, libetarians, corporatists, centralists, mildly left and apparently me out there on the extreeme left.

But isn't that the point of human existance, we have brains and mind, and apparently (although somewhat colourfully) perfected the art of communication (so much so that we've gone beoyond our language to bits and bytes), and have the ability to form individuual ideas.

then we get to the heart of libetarian right wing politics the importance placed on the individual and freedom of choice. I have problems with this, but that's my concern.

But to be consistent, the right have to respect my right to the set of ideals that i choose to live by (within social and judical norms).

[Graham watson]

In the unlikely event labour clings to power with the support of their favourite xenophobe, and actually delivers on their loans policy rather than renegs, i will take great delight in diverting funds currently reducing my student loan above the minimum payments to reducing my mortgage.

My student loan won't go down so fast but my mortgage will, funded by labours hardworking overtaxed supporters on much lower incomes.

Thankyou trev for looking after the mortgages of the professionals and well paid at the expense of blue collar workers. Must have been written in Washington. Stroke of genius. LOL.

[Paul]

Tim

Quote

"Yes wait Paul, but there will be more much more than the tax policy. The student loan policy will be bold and imaginative as against Labour's complicated unimaginative policies. Similar lines to the child care policy I pick, simple, broadly based and flexible. Give people choices, which is not so bad is it.

Posted by: tim barclay | July 19, 2005 12:13 AM"

here we are some 10 days later.

national delivered it's, what was the line, "bold and imaginative" student policy, and labour has released its, "complicated unimaginative policies".

Bit of a bugger when these things come back to bite you on the bum.

Now if only we could find that tax policy to debate?

[Caskman]

Paul
Your reply to Craig was one of the first times I've heard you talk rationally about your beliefs without the leering cynicism and sarcasm that usually adorns your posts. It was refreshing to hear a lucid statement of what you believe and while I don't agree with your ideological beliefs I totally agree with content of that post.

[Caskman]

except of course the bit about right-wing libertarians.

[Paul]

Caskman.

Didn't I get that right about the status of the individual, within right wing libetarianism?

Sorry about that.

as for the cynicism and sarcasm, well it's less offensive than personal abuse, but then it's hard not to be cynical and scarcastic with some of the posts in this place.

[GeniusNZ]

> In the unlikely event labour clings to power with the support of their favourite xenophobe

Winston is everyones favourite (only) xenophobe. We may as well ask him who will win the election now.

At times I have thought he sounded reasonable but going for hte "we dont care about chinese baby's" vote (togehter with so much other stuff) was a somewhat offputting strategy.

[Brian S]

"then we get to the heart of libetarian right wing politics the importance placed on the individual and freedom of choice. I have problems with this, but that's my concern."

OK, Paul, go here:

http://www.jonathangullible.com/mmedia/PhilosophyOfLiberty-english_music.swf

...and tell me what you don't agree with.

[Paul]

Brian,

apart from the fact that it's one philosophy of life. One view of the plethora of ethos' of life.

One in which I don't adhere to nor agree with.