Victory

I've been trying to highlight to a number of audiences in recent weeks just how sanctimonious and self-righteous the blogosphere in New Zealand can be. This morning, I decided I would try a little experiment to see if I could prove in graphic terms what I mean.

I wrote a wee post  about some throw-away comment WhaleOil had made, due to an earlier throw-away comment by me that if Brash won I'd be off back to Canada. I hoped it would generate a reaction.

I was not disappointed! On the post you can see the comments. SirHumphreys have got going here (some of the comments there are just smashing), and WhaleOil himself has labelled me a sooky la-la.

As I said in the closing comment on the thread, the point is made. It's either sad or hilarious, depending on your point of view, at how seriously some of the inhabitants of nz.politics.blogs take themselves.

I, of course, withdraw the accusation that all right wingers are racist and xenophobic. Such ugly attitudes inhabit the fringe of politics on both the left and the right. I don't apologise for the have, though. Talk about proving a point, in spectactular fashion.

Next time, don't bite so hard. It ill-becomes you, and it might damage your teeth! Try laughing. It'll do your blood pressure (and teeth) no end of good.

:-)

Comments

[Mike Collins]

Haha. Well done. Got a laugh once I figured out what you were on about. Although I'm not sure your thesis needed proving. I don't think anyone really disputes that anyway.

[AL]

Your post might have been a joke, funny is it can only be to someone who wasn't the butt of it and thinks being accused of xenophobia is funny.

But now you've raised the point - can you explain how Labour's historical virulent dislike of Americans and the United States is not xenophobic?

And in particular could you please explain how your party members considering any link between National and an American political party is prime facie evidence for American puppetry is also not xenophobic, when your own party accepted $500,000 from an expatriate New Zealander who financially benefitted from Clark's free trade negotiations with China.

Thanks.

[ZenTiger]

Haha. Calling some-one racist and xenophobic, as an experiment. Then withdraw it, therefore it doesn't count?

So you go punch some-one in the nose to prove they are violent. Hah - he hit back. You see what I'm going on about didn't you? You saw him repressing me??

You are a twit. I withdraw that.

[ZenTiger]

By the way, we only reacted that way because we were doing an experiment to see if you would retract your statement and say it was all just an experiment.

Worked perfectly.

[Chris]

You really are a sad little man aren't you Jordan?

[Jordan]

Chris Bishop, nope. I just seek evidence to prove my thoughts, when I can get it. Perfectly reasonable.

As for how attacking the policies of various US governments, and the desire of some groups in US politics to influence NZ politics could possibly be constructed as xenophobic, please try explaining that one to me.

It does seem to be a bit of a myth on the right that those of us on the left are against Americans. We're not. We're against what American does in the world and the naked use of force - both military and economic - it is prepared to indulge in to secure its foreign policy objectives.

How that's racist is beyond me. It's not about what race the Americans are or are not. It's what they *do* through their government apparatus that pisses the left off.

[Tane W]

We all love getting the moral high ground in any 'debate', but the speed with which our friends on the right seized it this time, and then proceeded to dig in was quite spectacular. If only the All Blacks had such consistent speed and passion for victory.....

Speaking of the Americans, as one of my colleagues put it, America is a bully, but it's the nicest of all possible bullies available at the moment. The Chinese, Japanese and Russians would be a damn sight worse. Only the Europeans would be better, mainly because they're so far away. Just because the US government don't punch us every time they try to convince us to do something doesn't mean we have to like them for their restraint. The US doesn't need to hit us with anything, because we have nothing they want that they can't get by asking or buying. Hope like hell that we don't find a Saudi size oilfield off the coast of Taranaki....

[AL]

You have again proved the point. You have presented no evidence suggesting "US groups" are influencing NZ politics, you have presented no proof these groups "desire" to influence NZ politics; in fact all the evidence suggests otherwise: a representative of the National Party sought help from US Republicans for a PR campaign on the nuclear ship ban issue and was promptly rejected.

That didn't stop you (and many New Zealanders, to be honest) insinuating this non-involvement of Americans in our domestic politics as prime facie evidence of some sort of conspiracy with the implication of negative outcomes for New Zealand. Unspoken was the implication any strategic help the National Party gains from offshore sources is evil, so long as its American, while the NZ Labour Party happily receives advice from the top spinmeister of the UK Labour Party.

Sounds like xenophobia to me, or more accurately that your anti-Americanism is a subvariant of xenophobia, mixed in with heavy doses colonial close-mindedness.

[Chris]

Whats with the inserting of my last name into replies to my comments?

[ZenTiger]

Jordan, could you explain to me the logic behind your "victory"?

You effectively punch some-one in the nose to prove they punch back, and then say "just joking - what is it with you?"

I still don't follow your logic.

[Bernard Woolley]

"I've been trying to highlight to a number of audiences in recent weeks just how sanctimonious and self-righteous the blogosphere in New Zealand can be."

Well done Jordon, you've made a great example of yourself! ;)

[Jordan]

I don't think there's any conspiracy, AL. The colonial attitude on this one is all over on the right, which seems to think we need to lick the boots of the hyperpower to be allowed to exist.

If I may quote the late David Lange on this very question:

"It is self-defeating logic, just as the weapons themselves are self-defeating: to compel an ally to accept nuclear weapons against the wishes of that ally is to take the moral position of totalitarianism, which allows for no self-determination, and which is exactly the evil that we are supposed to be fighting against."

I am sure that there are Americans who want to see our nuclear free policy changed, and they want to do it by influencing our politics. I've met some of them personally. I've also met Americans of the opposite viewpoint. Most of both groups are perfectly pleasant.

That's not a conspiracy! That's freedom of thought and movement and so on. Things I totally, and utterly support.

Just as I support my right to highlight it. If people don't want their country governed by a party which seems unable to be up front about its views, then they have a very simple choice: they can vote for someone else.

Like Labour.

[ZenTiger]

I'm trying to change the stand on Nuclear power, not nuclear weapons. I think that is the position of the vast majority of NZ'ers that want any sort of change.

It is pure spin to keep expanding this to be about nuclear weapons.

[RWDB]

So what was the experiment? That people object to being called nasty and xenophobic?

Congratulations Ernest fucking Rutherford.

[Russell Brown]

I don't think I'd have done it quite that way, Jordan, but you did prove your point: as usal, there was a fair old tidal wave of pomp in response. And the funny thing is, certain people will go back to their own blogs and spew bile over everyone else as usual.

Perhaps it could be a monthly competition: best ring-wing blogger troll? Just an idea ...

Cheers,
RB

[Russell Brown]

Whoops ... *right* wing blogger troll ...

Cheers,
RB

[che tibby]

that isn't a reference to me is it RB?

don't make me have to fisk you, big fulla.

[dim]

It all seems a little sophmoric to me - there are a lot of hysterical right-wingers in the nz blogosphere, but the right in general seems to be over-represented, and there are an increasingly large number of nutty lefties around these days.

If you want to see the left at it's worse try visiting democratic underground or daily kos - both 'progressive' US sites. It's just as paranoid and banal as the guys at Sir Humphries.

[Paul]

"dislike of Americans and the United States"

Al, don't lump this on Jordan only. there are many of us throughout the world that also think that American POLITICS is bollocks.

having said that America itself is a wonderful and weird place.

Bono once said it, the best and worse of everything can be found in America.

Besides, he's Canadian, he's meant to have a natural suspicion of America, it's the same as the Kiwi-Aussie thing.

[Lucyna]

Note that Jordan's last post was at 11:41 am. The comments, I presume, were closed after that last comment. They were certainly closed when I looked at this blog.

The Sir Humphreys post was done in response to the post closing for comments here. Note the time of the Sir Humphreys post is 12:24 pm.

And if you think I might have changed the time, as is possible in blogger, note the first comment time is 12:41 pm.

It was done in response to the comments closing here. That was the red flag. If the comments had not closed here, I would most likely had left it well alone. Note that Jordan had been getting a hammering here before the comments closed.

Note also the over reaction from the left on this one, making this out to be something it is not. I find it very interesting that you've done this Jordan after the SST article that basically said it would be following the blogs regularly. Trying to smear the right are you?

[Paul]

RWDB

"Congratulations Ernest fucking Rutherford." and IP's

"It's just an invitation for you to fuck off back to Canada."

Why they hell are you people so bloody fork tounged.

Now, we all know that I'm not adverse to launching in boots and all, but only at the persons comments, not their beliefs or their liefstyles.

You guys have had a go at all manner of lifestyles and political allegences, but it's not the fact that you go after these people, it that you go after them like they have commited war crimes.

i mean what the hell have homosexual lefties ever done to deserve such vile indignation.

I mean has anyone on the left actually killed any of you guys, raped, pillaged, driven into you as drunk drivers whatever. I mean the guy has put words on a page and boy oh boy, you all come back as if he's taken your first born.

I just don't get it?

[Chris]

Anything that gets tim barclay going is fine by me. Honestly dude you are a disgrace to the right.

[ZenTiger]

Paul, you certainly dish it out as good as any rabid right winger.

As I said earlier - calling some-one racist and xenophobic, as an experiment???

Punching some-one in the nose to see if they hit back? Come-on!

And then you do the wounded lefty routine - that we are picking on a gay lefties?

I have only responded to generalised slurs by Jordan against the right.

It is ridiculous to think you can call some-one a xenophobic racist and then announce it was all just a grand experiment, and act surprised that "the right" leap to respond.

Look at you, leaping to respond to Jordan's aid. So a few lefties stick together to justify how clever Jordan is for calling some-one a xenophobic racist with a scumbag view, and then get amazed that a few righties call him on it.

RB and Che, pioneers in the pick a fight and then go "ooh, look, punch some-one in the nose and they punch back, it was all a grand experiment"

Not surprised to see you crowding around the school yard biff-up. Can't imagine why you think what you did passes as journalism.

With that attitude, its all about reinforcing what you most want to believe, with no regard to your own conduct in this matter.

Jordan, by making that post this morning all you have done is continue to fuel animosity instead of attempting to rise above it. By trying to justify it, you seem the more immature for it.

[Paul]

Hang on,

what about many many comments on this blog aren't "racist and xenophobic" from the right.

But I go back to my original point, why the virtiol towards other people (regardless of political persuasion).

After the london bombings, 'cloth heads' was used. Others regularly attack homosexual people here, the unemployed, the 'ugly'?

Why

What have they EVER done to you?

As I said before have they taken your first born?

Sometimes it just comes down to "racist and xenophobic" behaviour, add to that chauvanstic, homophobic, eletist. You have a go at solo mums, academics, foreigners etc etc.

As I say, I give it to the comments on this site, not wild generalistaion about the colour of the persons skin, or their lot in life.

According to many of you lot, poor people need to be shipped off to leper colonies.

I just don't get it. It's words on a page, and you treat other people as if they are 911 bombers?

No it's not wounded leftie routine.

[Paul]

this took all of 5 mins to compile. And is only a sample from this blog (where the language can be rather tame compared).

Yet again the green eyed monster raises its ugly head from it's lair on the left.
Posted by: Caskman
Oh I am sure they will dream up a low value course like a Bachelor in Singing Nursery Rhymes or counting to Ten, or doing ho scotch that anyone can do. That will soak then up and especially if they are getting free money to "enrol" in these courses.
Posted by: tim barclay |
Free money to study sociology and all those other rubbish tertiary training courses.
Posted by: tim barclay |
what a complete and contemptible ^@%$#& you both are,

Paul Le Cunte, you need to realise that campus based socialism is just a phase you’re going through, the indoctrination will eventually subside and you’ll regain some semblance of independent thought once more. You’ll still be a complete ^@%$#&, that’s your birthright, but at least you'll be a complete ^@%$#& capable of some thoughts of your own. One day perhaps, it will come to pass that there actually are some trendy leftist theorems you may choose NOT to uncritically embrace. I’ll simply confine myself to saying this. Au revoir, ^@%$#& !
P.S - I bet you used to get beaten up regularly at school.
Legend of Symbols:
& - R
% - N
# - E
@ - A
^ - W
$ - K
Posted by: sham 69
Clap Clap, My working class hero. What was it I said about a smug, moral superiority ?
You ^@%$#&
Posted by: sham 69

That bullshit argument does not wash.
If that is one of Labour Party's core principles, then they should all be lined up and shot.
Posted by: Insolent Prick
you frigging tool!
Posted by: Insolent Prick
you stupid cock.
Posted by: Insolent Prick

Of course celebrate you stupid socialists
Posted by: peter McK

Clearly you haven't lived in the real world, Paul.
Might be too difficult for you to understand either basic economics or common sense, but that is reality.
Posted by: Insolent Prick

Why don't you leave the cheap shots and nudge-nudge, wink-wink innuendo to the rest of the primates - like Paul,
Posted by: Craig Ranapia

Paul:
Why don't you go and your scum bucket buddy 'left' give it a rest? Your sleazy 'humour' is almost as boring as your hypocrisy.
When it comes to consistency, I don't think your fits of shagging the moral high horse sit well with your rancid cheap shots at Mark.
Posted by: Craig Ranapia |

the industrial complex conniving with an overweening socialist government to rip off the poor consumer. Where is Michael Fay when you need him to sort out NZ capitalism?
Posted by: hans

Unlike Helen Clark, you stupid cock, Don Brash is not a dictator.
Know you love Saddam, and all, and approve of terrorist dictators who oppress their own people.
Posted by: Insolent Prick

How old are you? You seem very juvenile.
They tried to treat the "infection" with diplomacy for 12 years. It only got worse. Were you even born back then?
Posted by: RWDB

Paul, why don't you get a job ?
Posted by: Roj Blake
Jord, I guess you can't stomach a real job then, which will actually earn money for the country.
Posted by: Roj Blake

Time for National to hit the lying scum in the Labour Party with some of the dirt it has on their personal lives.
Posted by: rightkiwi

Paul - I will have to let my good friend david Hodo (totally banned) that he has found a new target - your really are quite silly - you seem to me a regular whining left wing world owes me a living chip off the old block socialist. In life you get what you deserve. Capitalism is the only answer to freedom and prosperity. Socialisms answer is drag evryone down to the lowest common factor - losersville -
Posted by: Peter McK

destructive stupid socialists putting these as stickers around courtaney place in Wellington - as I see them I will remove them and then send a letter to Helen clark asking why her supporters think it is alright to vandalise the city - I will demand an answer from my employee -
Posted by: Peter McKeefry |

MMP is just so comlicated, lets us agree to dump it please. Curse Jim Bolger.
Posted by: tim barclay

the left wing socialists love to call Act extremeists so as to scare off the moderates- for extremism Labour need look no futher than their own party - on a series of fronts we have the likes of Smarmy - Marxist, clark - feminist, carter - gay rights, Mallard (and others - unionists, plus look to potential co-alition partners - maori Party and the greens - both are extremists.
Posted by: Peter McK

You really need try and run your own business Jordie, I do alot of offshore work and actually bring wealth into this country. What do you do ? You work in "Policy". Are you one of those oxygen bandits who sit around all day dreaming up regulations like banning egg and spoon races from kindergartens?
Posted by: Roj Blake

go ahead put it up - it is a load of crap (what more would i expect from stupid socialists
Posted by: Peter McK

Please keep the paranoia, self-pity, cheap bigotry and arrogance flowing. it's so endearing.
Posted by: Craig Ranapia

whats in it for meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
whats in it for meeeeeeeeeee
Posted by: selfish

"Send in the B-52s and turn the Middle East into a parking lot. Millions of dead towel heads are no loss to the world."
Posted by: David Hodo

Labour's 20 hours is provided you fill out a zillion forms, join a union, change your skin colour, become a lesbian and most of all become poor, then you might qualify.
Posted by: tim barclay |

A typically convincing ad hominem response from our resident intellectual.
Posted by: David Hodo

I damn well hope the Nats are cold hearted to those slobs on welfare. There needs to be more stick in our welfare policies.
Posted by: tim barclay

Projection, Paul, projection. I bet your wife spends a lot of time biting the pillow while you fantasize that you're nailing Chris Carter and Tim Barnett.
Tosser. Don't judge others by your standards.
Posted by: David Hodo

Not surprising really when their party is filled with Gays, academics, social workers, unioninsts and school teachers.
Posted by: Peter McK

I'm sure a rimjob like you is just itching to put your tongue in there and find out.
Posted by: David Hodo

By "free" you actually mean "fully taxpayer-funded."
Why should my tax money pay for your genetically defective, puling little brat to go to the doctor?
Posted by: David Hodo

Paul wrote: "Leave my fucking family out of it AGAIN you cunt or you will feel what it is like to have a seriously fucked off green leftie visiting you."
Obviously not a peacenik lefty. Feel free to come and visit me any time you want -- I'm uncommonly large and strong, and can assure you that you'd be the bitch at the end of any fistic encounter.
Posted by: David Hodo | July 5, 2005 10:28 AM
It is clear that David Homo does not really exist and is a mere parady of a red-neck.
Posted by: rightkiwi | July 5, 2005 10:56 AM
Isn't it interesting how Labour MP, Ashraf Choudhary is on record as saying he wants to stone homosexuals to death?
Posted by: David Hodo

Where's Paul?
Must have gone off to do some more inbreeding ...
Posted by: David Hodo

I can confirm that David Hodo does exist - he is a friend and the views espouses are a true reflection of his real views. Generally he is intelligent and would clean up any socialist in a one-on-one arguement. To such an extent he has converted from being a unionist labourite to an ACTor (there is hope for the socilaist classes )
Posted by: Peter McK

Dead and buried, Lenin is still a grubby little socialist, just as you are, Paul. And I suspect beyond "cleaning up" though you have never won an argument against me yet (and aren't about to, with your predictable ad hominem attacks).
Chippolata.
Posted by: David Hodo |

Cretin
The moral contortions going on in your tiny brain must be staggering.
Posted by: David Hodo

C'mon asshole...
Posted by: David Hodo

I have to say I am very,very glad I'm not gay.
The worst thing is that these people think THEY'RE normal.
Allah protect us.
Posted by: TheProphet

See attached link to an interesting article on the gay activist agenda, and its socialist roots.
http://gayconspiracy.co.uk/gayagenda.htm
Posted by: David Hodo | June 30, 2005 11:00 AM
Heterosexual marriage arises out of the nature of gendered reality. Gay "marriage" arises out of the desire of sexual deviants to be socially accepted and to avoid having their feelings hurt.
As the joke goes:
Randy arrives home to find Damien sitting in the bath pushing a floating turd around with his hand. When asked what he was doing, Damien replied: "I'm teaching Junior how to swim."
Gay "marriage" (and indeed sodomy without the benefit of an unearned social acceptance) is an obscene parody of normal sexual relations.
Posted by: David Hodo

I agree with David in that members of the gay community MAY indulge in sexually deviant behaviour more (much more) than other members of society (ie hetrosexuals). It is one of the agendas of the gay community to normalise their behaviour (which by traditional definition is clearly not normal.
Posted by: Peter McK

Leftbane you are the perfect example of a case for castaration of hetrosexuals.
Allah protect us.
Posted by: TheProphet

Gays do a damn fine job of smearing each other with their waste products without any assistance from others in the matter.
Posted by: David Hodo

Paul wrote: "...when millions of people all around the world are trying thier [sic] best to eliminate poverty..."
What you actually mean is "when millions of socialistically-inclined knob-ends are trying to pressure their governments to buy into the notion of a global welfare state."
Who was it that wrote: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need?"
What was his political system called?
Cretin.
Posted by: David Hodo

Once gays went beyond seeking TOLERANCE to demanding PUBLIC ACCEPTANCE and ENDORSEMENT of homosexual behaviour, it is only proper for the public to ask what kind of behaviour it is being asked to accept and endorse.
And when homosexual behaviour is considered in the cold light of day, it is clearly abnormal and unnatural.
Posted by: David Hodo

Michael Moore is an ignorant, America-hating twat, who feels entitled to piss all over the country that provides him with a good income and unprecedented levels of freedom.
His speech at the Oscars would have to be the worst pontificating the world has heard from a fat man since Hermann Goering took the stand at Nuremburg.
Posted by: David Hodo

Those who regard themselves as belonging to iwi have chosen loyalty to their mixed-race kin group above identification with the national interest.
They demand the transfer to them of rights that belong to ALL New Zealanders based on this bogus cultural identification.
Posted by: David Hodo

I've coughed up plenty of taxes in the last few years and if "she who must be obeyed" gets re-elected, I'm gone...good riddance the pinkos may say, but like minded people like myself are leaving who contribute in largesse to the tax pool, bottom line, do the left leaning apologists not see this as a problem ? If they dont, then God help NZ, because no one else will.
Posted by: Kerr Avon

Paul wrote: "Peer reviewed my ass."
Have you had your ass peer-reviewed, Paul?
Are you (finally) coming out of the closet?
Posted by: David Hodo

Pre-Civil Unions, gays had tolerance. What they were actually seeking was public endorsement of their sexual behaviour. Now, evangelical homosexuals have the victory they seek. A strong argument can now be made for the claim that homosexuality is normal, natural behaviour, and functionally equivalent to heterosexuality -- because Nanny State says so. Equal emphasis coming up in the sex-ed curriculum, anyone?
Since heterosexuality arises out of the nature of gendered reality, it's nonsense to treat homosexuality as an equally valid lifestyle choice. The best gays can hope for is tolerance, and if they try to go further, once Joe Average catches on there will be trouble.
Posted by: David Hodo

And for the sake of reposting.
does anyone get the irony that David Hodo was the construction worker in The Village People.
http://www.officialvillagepeople.com/David%20page.html
Posted by: Paul | June 27, 2005 07:49 PM
"Brash is homophobic...For christ's sake, he's old, white, thinning on top, hetro, ex money man, leader of the National party, what do you think, he's off to the Mardi Gras."
Now look who's being bigoted and stereotypical...
Posted by: Whig
The simple fact is that homosexuality will never be fully accepted by the heterosexual majority, who are obeying the dictates not of religious or secular bigotry, but of procreative nature.
Posted by: David Hodo

Heterosexual intercourse (potentially) creates life. As such, it has positive spiritual significance. Sodomy involves monkeying with a part of the body, the purpose of which is to expel from the body, matter that has had all life extracted from it. In the Christian paradigm, because of their respective spiritual significance, one is a "Godly" act; the other a "Satanic" act. Whether one would apply that analysis or not, sodomy is a degrading and spiritually debilitating practice.
As for masturbation, thats perfectly safe and healthy. Look upon it as "sexual conditioning" -- or creating the expectation of a pleasurable outcome from engaging in the real thing -- as well as taking a load offa your nuts from time to time.
Posted by: David Hodo

So don't tell me that sodomy is a widespread and normal behaviour amongst straights, because it isn't. Furthermore, I have yet to speak to a single straight (and remember I'v always been around sexually adventurous people) who hasn't responded with outright disgust if the subject of "rimming" or "fisting" was brought up.
Posted by: David Hodo

I also do not accept that society has any obligation to homosexuals beyond tolerance of the private behaviour of consenting adults and their protection as sovereign individuals(same as everyone else) against force and fraud. I draw the line at being asked to ENDORSE as functionally equivalent to heterosexuality what is clearly perverse and unnatural behaviour.
Posted by: David Hodo

The evidence indicates that homosexual men molest boys at rates grossly disproportionate to the rates at which heterosexual men molest girls.
Posted by: David Hodo

No, it's not racist, Jordan.
It's just an invitation for you to fuck off back to Canada.
Posted by: Insolent Prick

[AL]

Er, thanks for the spam.

Jordan, I see you won't actually address my questions and insist on criticising one that was never asked.

Does Labour have some sort of party-wide policy to act in a disingenuous manner? Yes I think so. Pity the Nats seem to prefer sitting on their hands rather than openly confronting you guys on the inherent irrationality of many of your core beliefs.

[rightkiwi]

These are two of the stangest posts I've ever read on any blog. Frankly, I don't believe your line about an "experiment" - I think you meant what you posted first and the "experiment" line is just spin. I hope so, because running such an "experiment" would be a very unusual thing to do ... quite weirdo in fact (and I still don't see what it proved - most people on most blogs don't seem sanctimonious and self-righteous. Usually comments are quite good-humoured. Except for you really. Perhaps you are the sanctimonious and self-righteous one and this is all a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.)

[ZenTiger]

Paul - what are you trying to accomplish? David Hodo vs Millsy?

Jordan Cater calls some-one racist and xenophobic, with scumbag views, he tries to extrapolate that to all right wingers.

He gets a reaction, and claims it was an experiment to see what would happen by doing that.

Jordan said:
"I, of course, withdraw the accusation that all right wingers are racist and xenophobic. Such ugly attitudes inhabit the fringe of politics on both the left and the right. "

Well of course he withdraws it. Apparently, his logic allows for him to be sanctimonious once that statement is withdrawn.

[TheProphet]

Can someone please take just five minutes to post all the stupid shit that paul has said on this very blog.

Jordan has obviously been observing Helens speeding spin and like the small child is trying to copy mother hanging out the washing.

Sad day for the left.

Allah protect us.

[Leftbane (TM)]

So you make an offensive, generalized and insulting statement and then withdraw it. If you were sincere you wouldn't have said it in the first place. Ha! This just shows what a gutless, weaving, dithering, heterophobic, Anglophobic, pseumohumanitarian, quasi-Stalinist scum you are!

I think New Zealand has no place for sinful socialist slime like you and your entourage. Go back to Canada and drown yourself in the waters of the Georgia Straight. They don't need more thugs like Svend Robinsons either.

And no, I don't withdraw these statements. I believe one should be a conviction politician. I stand for what I believe. And I'm proud of it!!!

[TheProphet]

Paul - Maybe you could put this quote of mine and the other one of mine you used into context for what leftbane had said.It was something very similar to what he has said above.

'Leftbane you are the perfect example of a case for castaration of hetrosexuals.
Allah protect us.
Posted by: TheProphet'

This must make me
- a right winger ? No
- an abusive commenter? No
- thinking paul is a full of shit dumb cunt? Yes

I await your apology you little git.

Allah protect us.

[Logix]

"This just shows what a gutless, weaving, dithering, heterophobic, Anglophobic, pseumohumanitarian, quasi-Stalinist scum you are!"

Leftbace... stop being such a sooky-la-la....tell him how you REALLY feel.

[Wind Rider]

Seen this sitcom before, I think -

Lefty: Something absolutely outrageous!

Rightie: Hey, that's outrageous, take a hike.

Lefty: Ho ho! Just kidding. Didn't mean it. Look at how Rightie overreacted! Aren't they all poopyheads?

puh-lease.

Jordan, you're supposed to be good at this spin game? Dude, this only gets a 4. From the Romanian judge. But keep at it...it may be amatuer hour, but hey, it's exactly the winning strategy that Dean and Kerry both used in the US last time..so go on, get out there and just work your little tail of for Helen and company!

I'm rootin for ya...as far as you know.

[ZenTiger]

Logix, Leftbane was only paraphrasing something Paul had said a few days ago. We really need to acknowledge the source, and not give full credit to Leftbane.

[Tiberias]

For those of you who "don't get it" I suggest you read the post.
What was Jordan trying to do?

"highlight to a number of audiences in recent weeks just how sanctimonious and self-righteous the blogosphere in New Zealand can be."

Obviously, he succeeded. The amazing thing is how well the response to his "gotcha" continues to prove his point.

Two key questions remain: Are we better or worse than the american idiots[1] (probably about equal?) and of course the one that will cause controversy - is the right worse than the left? Well, I'd say the right is far worse on average, but then some would say I'm on the left. I prefer to regard myself as a freethinker. Anyway until someone can even get close to Pauls quick list of quotes I think
the left can sit happily in the slightly less self-righteous and sanctimious seats.

Tiberias

[1] Ad-hominem, check. Flamebait, check. Hypocrisy, check. But I blame Green Day, your honour.

[rightkiwi]

But Tiberias, don't you agree this was a slightly odd "experiment" to want to do?

[Hobbo]

Whats this got to do with the yanks? Fuck all thats what.

This is primer one kind of shit - the bloke must have got picked on at school to pull this stunt.

[Paul]

"sinful socialist slime like you and your entourage. Go back to Canada and drown yourself in the waters of the Georgia Straight"

Nice, and the poltical debate in this sort of abuse is.

I have said some strong stuff, but if one takes care to notice, I'm trying play the comment not the person. If leftbane wants to continue with the personal abuse, fine, thats where some of you on the right are.

There is nothing slightly resembling conviction in your abuse, because it's just that abuse. Or if this is the tact you are going to take, please allow the football hooligan, the KKK racist, the neo-nazi of german youth, etc etc all the right to spurt their bullshit out, after all it's their conviction.

But do you stop there. If you are a person of your conviction, do you go the step further if you don't get you way. Do you take up arms or some other form of violence. I mean after all you are a person of strong political conviction, you should do these things.

[Peter McK]

Thanks Paul for the opportunity to reminise - I miss David Hodo and will contact him immediately to let him know that you have republished and recycled his comments to live another day - which except for your foolish petty actions would have been used to wrap last month's rubbish.

this whole thread reminds me of the saying "those who live in glass houses should no throw stones."

Well by tomorrow this thread will be fish and chip paper.

[Marcus D]

Jordan,

I just have one question for you:

How would you react if someone called you xenophobic and racist?

I await your response.

[Insolent Prick]

Nonsense, Paul. You get as personal as anybody else here, and you're hypocritical slime for suggesting otherwise.

[Sam]

One of my favourite Barclayisms: "Have you ever sat on a train or bus late at night with all those dirty hoons". (posted on a DPF thread discussing the merits of public transport)

Its not just the left that are targets for the right - it seems that some have an overwhelming sense of their own worth that colours their views and comments.

[Sam]

"I have come to the conclusion that I am infact (and I do feel sorry fo Jordan), arguing the point with people of the right whos tentative grasp on reality has finally lost it's will to live and you are all in fact posting from inside institutions - who the hell gave you access to bloody computers and the internet in there...
Your astonsingly delusional if not weak attempt at futurism is not only flawed beyond belief, but is based on the supreme arogance of the assumption of importance of yourself in this world".
by Paul (and tamer than many of his other posts!)

I have noticed a trend in Jordan's blog where they tend to tail off as people lose interest in the slanging match between Paul and an equally capable oponent from the right. It does go both ways, and no doubt we have all been guilty of it.

In actual fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some of this form of political venting isn't the attraction for some of the contributers to these blogs.

If it were such a problem, I am sure that it could be policed by removing the posts of those that make personal attacks (and their right to post) - whether they come from the left or the right. I feel that there would be very few posters left however.

[Paul]

IP,

FYI I attack the persons comments these days, not their lifestyle or sex or religion or creed etc.

I thought homophobia etc went out in the 80s.

[Paul]

For the record.

lets go at each other hammer and tongs, not a problem.

the problem comes when for instance David Hodo offers to give my wife one, or attacks my son.

The problem comes with racial slurs.

the problem comes with homophobia.

the problem comes from xenophobia.

The problem comes from the complete lack of respect for humans. Lets get the gloves off in political debate not some strange assumptions that your political convictions condone the problems above.

Leave the race, sex, creed and personal out of it and have a bloody good argument.

Yours
ashhole slime - apparently.

[Insolent Prick]

Paul said:
"IP,

"FYI I attack the persons comments these days, not their lifestyle or sex or religion or creed etc.

"I thought homophobia etc went out in the 80s."

You're an absurd creature, Paul. And a liar.

You cannot on the one hand maintain that you don't get personal, and then close the statement with the inference that I am a homophobe.

[Paul]

IP.

Thanks once again for the personal attack.

For the want of not sounding like I'm attacking you (god know the right are super bloody touchy on this one).

Read the fucking post!!!

Jesus this is bloody absurd!!!

For the love of god, I am keen to engage in vigirous political debate and very keen to keep the personal attacks out of this. You're making it bloody hard.

the comment about homophobia, was in relation to some of the nasties going on in this place, not you.

[Tiberias]

I think it might be interested adjudicating comment value based on a swearword:threat:ad-hominem:word-count:legitimate-argument[1] ratio.

For instance based on the quotes and posts on this page Insolent Prick scores

1:0:1:22:0 (not _quite_ a threat)
0:0:1:3:0
1:0:1:3:0
0:0:0:26:0
1:0:4:27:0
1:0:0:18:0
0:0:1:16:0
0:0:2:34:1 (not counting quoted text)

Not a great example I guess, but you get the idea.

It seems to me, based on close observation, that it is difficult to participate in comment sections in the NZ blogosphere without developing a very thick skin.

Furthermore it seems likely that a large number of potentially valuable participants in the nz political blogosphere have either given up or decided not to jump in, because it's clearly only for first order sadomasochists.

It strikes me that the comments on this blog are often a particular waste of time - the same old people making the same old arguments in a nasty and bitter fashion. I really don't see the point.

If I were Jordan and had a bit of free time, I would be nuking every comment that

(a) contained a swearword
(b) contained a threat
(c) referenced anyone's sexuality, unless the post made that on-topic.

That would actually make the comments worth reading for the average person as opposed to them being a flamewarrior-only zone. It would also considerably improve the quality of debate.

Sadly, I doubt Jordan has time to play censor right now.

PS: RightKiwi, FWIW, yes, a bit odd, but far less odd than some of the other things bloggers do.

[1] Where a legitimate argument contains something approaching premises and a conclusion that are not part of an ad-hominem attack.

[Michael]

I think this proves my theory that by claiming you have the moral high ground you are "full of shit".

Of course I mean that for both the lefties and righteous in the world. (And yes, I include myself)

[Logix]

A moments thought convinces me of the futility of trying to persuade anyone of anything by calling them names.

The only person whose behaviour you can, or even should try and control....is yourself.

Is any one of us perfect in this respect?