Godwin's law, the local variety

Generally speaking you automatically lose an argument on the 'net when you compare someone with Hitler.

Now we have David Farrar doing the local version, spending right wingers' money on billboards that essentially label Helen Clark a dictator in the making.

Helen's response, to laugh, is about the right one. I think the nutters on the right have gone way too far with these billboards. They are not punchy and damaging like the 2005 Iwi/Kiwi ones. They look like WhaleOil plus MS Paint, and their impact will be undetectable now that the silly season is well and truly upon us.

Given all the possible critiques of the legislation, why people go for the most extreme and irrelevant ones is quite beyond me.

Comments

[Poneke]

They are amateurish, aren't they? Like something flung together over a few dozen bottles of beer one noisy Saturday afternoon.

National's ones from the last election were clever.

[sean14]

"I think the nutters on the right have gone way too far with these billboards".

Jordan, can we assume from that comment that you think their right to free speech should be limited?

If the billboards are as awful as you think, people will recognise that and draw appropriate judgements for themselves about the publishers. People are free to think for themselves and form their own opinions, something the passage of the EFA shows that Labour has no respect for. I commend Hone Harawira's third reading speech to you.

[rod]

And I commend Hone's description of John Key to you. "a smiling snake"

[Idiot/Savant]

The billboards are basically internet trolling, only done in the real world. And hopefully, they'll be about as successful there. "All hate, all the time" is great for mobilising the extremists, but most people tend to find it extremely distasteful.

[sally]

Someone described them perfectly as billboards with a slogan that's an in-joke that most won't get, refering to legislation that most don't care about, with a photo of someone most don't recognise. And those that do will be deeply offended by them - National's obviously not departing from their long-held tactic of appealing only to white, xenophobic, barely literate frat-boys (wow - I just profiled Cameron Slater) and banjo playing red-necks.

I'm not impressed with the passing of the EFA. And there are plenty of things to bash this legislation with - National/Farrar could have spent their "hard earned money" on something much more benificial to their cause that this.

[Doug Lilly]

So I suppose Nick Smith's association of Clare Curran's Environment Ministry work with that of Nazi propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels (Local Government and Environment Select Committee, 15 November 2007)comes under this law too?

[Insolent Prick]

"They look like WhaleOil plus MS Paint, and their impact will be undetectable now that the silly season is well and truly upon us."

Good line, Jordon.

Except most people reading the billboards will take them in good humour. This government has become an utter joke. People aren't listening to Helen Clark anymore. She has gone way too far in ramming policies that people don't want down our throats, and doing everything she can to tilt the balance of electoral law in her favour, at the expense of everybody else. This is a sad, desperate, dying Government which, as days go by, people have the choice to either laugh or cringe at it. DPF is giving voters the opportunity to laugh.

[sally]

Yep, IP, your average New ZEalander will certainly be laughing at a government that is resposible for record low unemployment rate, falling crime rates, and increasing the minimum wage 9 times in 8 years because they've stopped the ability of Boscawon, Brash and the Exclusive Brethran to secretly buy elections.

I hate to break it to you guys, but the average NEw Zealander is doing very well under a Labour government, and will find that the electoral finance act will not make a single bit of difference to them.

[sean14]

rod - I look forward to seeing how the Maori Party positions itself in the lead up to the next election. It seems they don't have much time for either Clark or Key, but they'll have to join a coalition or at least pledge confidence and supply if they are to get policy concessions.

sally - Why do you persist in perpetuating the myth that money buys elections? You are aware that Labour has won the last three elections?

[sally]

sean14 - you're right, money doesn't necessarily buy elections, but having a large amount of money certianly makes winning elections considerably easier.

And in the Nat's case, money is a nice substitute for grass-roots membership - and money doesn't question HQ jacking up candidate selection (unlike National Party members in Selwyn).

[sally]

Oh and Labour has won the last three elections because National had run the country into the ground in the 1990's, and Labour's been working hard to make New Zealand a better place to live for average New Zealanders.

[Insolent Prick]

Sally,

Given that Labour is trailing National by NINETEEN PERCENT in the latest polls, and National looks set to govern alone, it's pretty clear that the New Zealand public think that National could do much better than Labour.

Nice of you to raise the "grassroots membership" thing. You might not want to talk about that too much. It doesn't help your argument much. Labour's entire membership hovers at around 4,000 members. National's membership now exceeds 30,000.

[Matthew Pilott]

IP, nice to see you taking note of the latest poll. There was one poll (singluar, not "polls") with National 19 points ahead. The latest poll has National back under 50%, with the gap at 13%. Since these polls were only five days apart, can I expect to see Labour with 100% of the vote in 66 days, as they're clearly gaining 6% every five days? ;)

While they are still well behind, and I'm sure you find it reassuring to tell yourself that the election is a done deal, reality beckons for the rest of us and a lot can change in a year.

By the way, you really need to stop speaking for the New Zealand public, with your sweeping general references to "people". I don't think "people" generally find references to murderous dictators funny, so if that's a representation of your ability to read the general public, your views about National's popularity don't hold a lot of credibility.

[sally]

I have no idea about party membership figures - but the Labour Party hasn't had to re-open selection because of complains of HQ rigging by local members - it's clear that National views it's membership as a bit of an nuisance than anything else. Didn't Key's selection in Helenville follow a similar process?

Can I take the fact that you have changed topic that you don't refute that big money puts political parties in a significant advantage? Is this why Farrar and Boscawon are so keen to spread the lies and misinformation that they have been? They know perfectly well someone chatting about politics in the pub or protesters with a megaphone or placard won't have to state their name and address, but continue to spout such rubbish to try and scare an electorate, 99% of which is genuinely disaffected by the EFA.

[sally]

Sorry, the first statement should read "complains from members about HQ rigging".

[Leftie]

Insolent Prick
After 8 years in government, the Labour Party still basically has the same support it had at 1999, that's an achievement.
National has achieved a good result before Christmas - not through it's own hard work. Where are their policies? I know I know, don't release them now as they will be unpopular. Like you, National criticise, criticise, and criticise Labour, but often have no credible answers to fixing a problem (except to revert to failed policies of the 1990s).
Your bold and generic predictions this far out from an election are a little over confident and arrogant. Did you make the same predictions before the last election?

[PM of NZ]

"dictator in the making"?

A definition I found of a dictator is

"generally used to describe a leader who holds and/or abuses an extraordinary amount of personal power, especially the power to make laws without effective restraint by a legislative assembly. Dictatorships are often characterized by some of the following traits: suspension of elections and of civil liberties; proclamation of a state of emergency; rule by decree; repression of political opponents without abiding by rule of law procedures; single-party state, cult of personality"

My view is that Helen exhibits a fair few of these traits. QED. Helen Clark is already a dictator.

[Leftie]

PM
You are in the exaggerator club mate. Lift your game and get some credibility.

[Oliver]

Sally,

On the grassroots thing, no other party in NZ has more members than the National Party.

[Oliver]

Sally Jordan and any other supporters of the Electoral Finance Act,

No amount of money will bring in someone that voters truly don't like. John McGrath was the best funded candidate for the Wgtn Mayoralty and was amongst the first to drop out of the count.

[GNZ]

I don't think there is any point getting too excited - this is the natural response to the bill - its almost manditory. However, I hope DPF got Bainimarama's permission to use his likeness - otherwise he owes them some money.

Someone should tell Bainimarama.

[Murray]

Speaking for myself, and of course you don't have to agree with me, I think the billboards display a very accurate portrayal of the state of politics in New Zealand.

[Larry]

'I hate to break it to you guys, but the average NEw Zealander is doing very well under a Labour government, and will find that the electoral finance act will not make a single bit of difference to them.'

No, I hate to break it to you that the average New Zealander is now living happily in Australia.

[Sonia]

Oh come on, the average New Zealander is not doing well under the current Labour Government, and the vast majority of New Zealanders weren't doing particularly well under Labour even when the economy was going extraordinarily well.

This is not to say that National have all the answers, but we need a refreshing change as soon as possible, for the good of everyone.

[PaulC]

well we have the lowest unemployment in years I can't see how the average can't be higher - personally I'd be doing a lot better if the dollar wasn't so high - but I understand that that's a side effect of the RB's policy to deal with our wonderfull economy (including that low unemployment rate). We have low tax rates, even at the high end - I lived in the US for years and I'm so much better off in NZ (~8-10% by my count when you include all the US taxes) I actually think that National are going to be in trouble if they win - things can't stay this great forever and they're going to get blamed if things go south on their watch. The whole electoral reform bill seems to me to be an Auckland-storm-in-a-tea-cup I don't hear any large number of voices against it coming from any where else - everyone I've talked about it to here seems to think it's kind of "ho-hum politicians trying to get in the news as usual". Let's face it politics is a marketplace of ideas - and just like the economy you need to level the playing field so that all ideas get heard - an idea that has the most money behind it doesn't make it the best idea

[Sonia]

"things can't stay this great forever" lol. Our unnemployment is high, really dramatically high. With a lot of solo mothers and sickness beneficiaries and Working for Families and so on, the amount of money actually being earned in this country is too close to the amount of money that's given out by the Government. Personal income taxation is high, and we have GST as well, not to mention a host of other taxes. Credit card debt and personal loans are necessary for many people just to get by on, which inevitably leads to the consideration of bankruptcy for many. New Zealand, like many 'developed' countries, has so many insolvent citizens that it's just ridiculous.

[Clint Heine]

Makes you wonder who Sally really is when she rattles off those poor comparisons. Most "well off" Kiwis are in Oz while others are planning to leave. As for money, if that was the case I have yet to see ACTs dollars pay off during the campaigns. Labour have done well but off the back of National economic policy as well as the fact Labour are too scared to reverse the policies of Ruth Richardson and Sir Roger Douglas.

Sonia - bang on. What is the pertentage of Kiwis who depend on WFF and other Govt handouts of our own money? If the Nats had the good sense to cull this people would assume they would be worse off until the real tax cuts rolled on in.

[Leftie]

Sonia: "Our unnemployment is high, really dramatically high"

Do you want people to take your comments seriously?

[Sonia]

It's a serious issue, so yes, I do want people to take my comments seriously and can't really think of a justifiable reason why they wouldn't be taken seriously.

If you're stupidly simplistic about it and just figure out how many people we have on the dole and then base your opinion on our level of unemployment on that, then there's no way you're going to take seriously what I have to say. The thing is, though, so many people have been kicked off the dole and onto other benefits to make the figures look better.

The amount of money given out to people each week through Working for Families and all the benefits and superannuation and all of that isn't sustainable.

[PaulC]

yes our unemployment rate is low (~3.8%), the US's rate is ~5%, so is Australia's - low enough that the reserve bank is worried about the inflation pressure it causes - on the up side it will force up wages and that will eventually stem the outflow to Oz taxes here are low too - in California I was paying a marginal rate of 33% federal, 10% state, 6.2% social security for a total of ~49% - in NZ I'm paying 39% (and no tax on capital gains!) in Australia I'd be paying 45% federal plus (NSW payroll) 6% for a marginal rate of 51% honestly I don't understand why people buy into the propaganda from the BRT and their ilk - you don't know how lucky you are mate

[GNZ]

> Credit card debt and personal loans are necessary for many people just to get by on

Credit card debt and personal loan debt is just milking the uneducated poor. People get personal loans to pay for parties and holidays and new TV's and gambling so forth. It is pretty rare for that to be a sensible way to get things.

If you are really out of money and something bad hits you (like illness) it would be better to front up to social services and show that you have no money rather than going down to 'Mugs' the local loan shark if your not out of money then personal loans are the stupidest way to raise it.

[Policy Parrot]

Sonia - are you one of these people who have an insatiable consumerist outlook, like many baby boomers?

From the early 1940s, until 1991, there was such a thing called the Family Benefit, which was paid to all families with a mean-test after $100,000. The total amount of non-pension social security receipts has decreased under a Labour-led government since 1999 in absolute terms, not withstanding the establishment of WFF - and also the fact that benefits have been raised due to inflation.

National scrapped this in the MOAB in 1991. Working for Families brings back this natural support for families. The truth is, that National doesn't care about families - they only spout rhetoric lined with dogwhistles so that the bigoted are tricked into voting for them - in line with conservative parties thought in the Western world.

Tax cuts aren't the solution to blue collar poverty. They will only stoke inflation. The solution is to return to penalty (but not tax) free penal rates above 45 hours per week, and between 10pm and 6am. Also, further hike minimum wages. Those businesses already paying penal rates and good wages will not be affected. Only those businesses who are in effect subsidised by the taxpayer will have to cough up.

[Sonia]

There are some of us that actually have had to deal with the harsh realities of being poverty-stricken. This is very personal for me to express, but I had to get a credit card and a personal loan to pay for my weekly living expenses a while back.

Also, I think it's necessary for me to point out to some of you that social services is not a tree with money growing on it, is not a charitable institution, and is run primarily by long-faced sadists that look like they have carrots stuck up their arses.

Tax cuts for the workers will not increase inflation provided that other taxes, such as GST, are raised. If I got a tax cut, I'd be able to actually save some of my hard-earned money each week, which I believe I deserve the opportunity to be able to do.